Drug companies donated millions to CA lawmakers before the vaccination debate. Surprise, surprise.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
As a staunch supporter of LIFE, my children will never be vaccinated with aborted babies from before I was born.
Its been to many years to remember all the vaccinations but I believe my kids do not have hepatitis b and some others. But they problems I had were with the viral shots.
Doctors justify using dead babies because the fetuses were “willingly aborted.” Idiots, they never asked the slaughtered children for their opinion.[/quote]
What in the everloving FUCK are you talking about??
Vaccinations don’t “contain” aborted babies. Or fetuses, zygotes, or anything else. They are not “made” with those either. They don’t “come from” those either. They are not made “using” dead babies, or parts of dead babies or…holy fuck. Put down the fucking Kool-Aid. You are losing your damn mind.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
As a staunch supporter of LIFE, my children will never be vaccinated with aborted babies from before I was born.
Its been to many years to remember all the vaccinations but I believe my kids do not have hepatitis b and some others. But they problems I had were with the viral shots.
Doctors justify using dead babies because the fetuses were “willingly aborted.” Idiots, they never asked the slaughtered children for their opinion.[/quote]
What in the everloving FUCK are you talking about??
Vaccinations don’t “contain” aborted babies. Or fetuses, zygotes, or anything else. They are not “made” with those either. They don’t “come from” those either. They are not made “using” dead babies, or parts of dead babies or…holy fuck. Put down the fucking Kool-Aid. You are losing your damn mind.[/quote]
I am curious to know how vaccine makers or researchers would use a dead aborted baby body in their work.
Can kneedrager, defender of life, explain this?
jasmincar,
To a very small extent Kneedragger is correct that fetal tissue is involved in the growing of the viruses that are used for some vaccines, however the tissue is over 50 years old and was not harvested for the purpose of making the vaccines. The best quote I can find is from a scientist at Merck saying :
“There are perhaps nanograms of DNA fragments still found in the vaccine, perhaps billionths of a gram,” he said. “You would find as much if you analyzed the fruits and vegetables you eat.”
So while Kneedragger is not correct he is not 1000% incorrect either. Of course being so “pro-life” that you would let your child die from a preventable disease indicates a certain rigidity of mind that doesn’t translate well for a two-way discussion.
Leaving aside the technical science, which is routinely reported wrongly–even in good faith–and which I have neither the time nor the desire to clarify and explain ad nauseam, there was this gem:
[excerpt from ABC news story containing that Merck quote]
“We should always ask our physician whether the product he proposes for our use has an historical association with abortion,” the National Catholic Bioethics Center states on its website, but then goes on to say “one is morally free to use the vaccine regardless of its historical association with abortion.”
“The reason is that the risk to public health, if one chooses not to vaccinate, outweighs the legitimate concern about the origins of the vaccine,” the center’s position statement continued. “This is especially important for parents, who have a moral obligation to protect the life and health of their children and those around them.”
The pope and the national Catholic Bioethics Center have both told devout Catholics that they are morally free to use vaccines without a troubled conscience. I can only assume that one who not only shows no regard for scientific accuracy in his other diatribes but also actively ignores an entreaty by the earthly leader of his religion is simply NOT INTERESTED in truth.
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? My second question is if doctors are so advenced in what they can do, who do they still use the same line of cells to create vaccinations against virusus. Third, people die from all sorsts of diseses everyday. I never died from chicken pox so you presume my children will die unless they are vaccinated. I am very impressed that you will talk to me even though you can predict the future where I cannot.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Leaving aside the technical science, which is routinely reported wrongly–even in good faith–and which I have neither the time nor the desire to clarify and explain ad nauseam, there was this gem:
[excerpt from ABC news story containing that Merck quote]
“We should always ask our physician whether the product he proposes for our use has an historical association with abortion,” the National Catholic Bioethics Center states on its website, but then goes on to say “one is morally free to use the vaccine regardless of its historical association with abortion.”
“The reason is that the risk to public health, if one chooses not to vaccinate, outweighs the legitimate concern about the origins of the vaccine,” the center’s position statement continued. “This is especially important for parents, who have a moral obligation to protect the life and health of their children and those around them.”
The pope and the national Catholic Bioethics Center have both told devout Catholics that they are morally free to use vaccines without a troubled conscience. I can only assume that one who not only shows no regard for scientific accuracy in his other diatribes but also actively ignores an entreaty by the earthly leader of his religion is simply NOT INTERESTED in truth. [/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? [/quote]
Not every child CAN be vaccinated, and not every shot is going to be 100% effective.
Humans are this amazing organism, and we all happen to be different from each other. Some of us aren’t going to respond to the vaccine.
Do you give your kids Tylenol when they have a fever?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? My second question is if doctors are so advenced in what they can do, who do they still use the same line of cells to create vaccinations against virusus. Third, people die from all sorsts of diseses everyday. I never died from chicken pox so you presume my children will die unless they are vaccinated. I am very impressed that you will talk to me even though you can predict the future where I cannot.[/quote]
I presumed nothing. Did I say your kid would die? No. Don’t put words in my mouth.
As beans noted not every person can be vaccinated–this includes those with immune deficiencies, certain cancer cases, and others. These people rely on others to be vaccinated to grant them some form of protection against disease carriers.
I will not answer your question regarding doctors…where you are actually wrong on the most basic level possible because the people who actually do these things and develop the science are “scientists”, not clinical doctors. Doctors see patients and/or perform surgery. There are very, very good reasons why cell lines are kept–not just this cell line, a ton of cell lines. Hundreds of them used in all manner of research, both animal and human lines.
I’ve not predicted the future–I’ve drawn on the past. The last time we had an exchange on contraception I put forth peer reviewed studies, MEDICAL TEXTBOOK references, and the best and brightest information to show you you were wrong. You responded with, effectively, “yeah but you’re wrong and the science is wrong”. In other words, you pissed on the information I gave you because it didn’t jive with your preconceived and INACCURATE misunderstandings regarding basic chemistry and biology. We had another exchange regarding certain chemicals in the environment where I once more told you the scientific underpinnings regarding your mistaken position. I did both these rather politely. You then stuck your metaphorical fingers in your ears and started metaphorically yelling.
A person who does this once, let alone repeatedly, is not interested in understanding anything. Especially when they bring up the “dead babies in vaccines” line of “argument”. I remarked as such, and that is precisely why I have not bothered to rehash any more science for you personally in threads regarding your posts. It’s not predicting the future, it’s being historically literate. After all, those who don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it. I resolve not to do that. If other people have questions I might decide to answer theirs.
Soylent Green is people! IT’S PEEEEEOOPLE!! Except… you know…it’s not soylent green OR people in these discussions I’ve already had with you.
You are correct, yet I have to play devil’s advocate ; ) How about the children who die after being vaccinated? Are their lives worth trading with regaurd to the general population?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? [/quote]
Not every child CAN be vaccinated, and not every shot is going to be 100% effective.
Humans are this amazing organism, and we all happen to be different from each other. Some of us aren’t going to respond to the vaccine.[/quote]
Actually I do not. Like you said, our bodies are an amazing organism. As such our bodies work far better than any man-made thing we can ingest. You might be able to think of one example or two, but those examples were not that way from the very start and they do NOT represent the whole.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Do you give your kids Tylenol when they have a fever?[/quote]
I asked why some people are worried about others having their children vaccinated. Yet you claimed I said my kids would die. I talked about my kids after referring to how I had chicken pox as a kid and I never died. My mistake in not placing the point in a separate paragraph, but please take your own advice and cease putting words, ideas and morals in my mouth. I do not intend that as an attack but I refuse to type in a gentle way so others? feelings are not hurt. That most likely explains why some posters on these boards block my posts jaa jaa jaa jaa!
You are correct in listing reasons why people can have a medical reason to abstain from a vaccination. However the reason/s should not matter. We live in America and as a Republic I will never be forced into doing something I do not want to do. My reasons for any such decisions do not matter, they are mine to make.
Doctors are at the very basic level human and as humans we all make mistakes. If you want to get into a discussion about science we can do that but something tells me in your responses that you believe you cannot be wrong and therefore I am mistaken. That flies in the face of logic so I will save you the trouble of showing me how wrong I am.
So peer reviewed studies and articles are the gold standard of medical science? The references to textbooks prove that contraception does not kill a child? If these sources fly against logic, reason and basic high school level biology then I am wrong? Jajajaja, you can hold your breath and tell me over and over again how I am mistaken. If it sounds like crap, looks like crap and smells like crap, I hate to tell you your sources are crap. ALL birth control except the barriers like condoms or diaphragms are by their very definitions abortifacient. If you do not believe me, please read the literature from Partial Personhood clinics and quote to me how they work. Please provide the actual literature from the clinic and not some source that fits your argument.
Referencing a movie from 1973 does what? Prove you were born before me and I have to admit you are right? Oh wait, you have to be right because your life proves you have more experience in being mistaken ; ) But seriously, what was your point in bring up the movie?
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? My second question is if doctors are so advanced in what they can do, why do they still use the same line of cells to create vaccinations against viruses. Third, people die from all sorts of diseases everyday. I never died from chicken pox so you presume my children will die unless they are vaccinated. I am very impressed that you will talk to me even though you can predict the future where I cannot. edited because I saw my mistakes this time ; )[/quote]
I presumed nothing. Did I say your kid would die? No. Don’t put words in my mouth.
As beans noted not every person can be vaccinated–this includes those with immune deficiencies, certain cancer cases, and others. These people rely on others to be vaccinated to grant them some form of protection against disease carriers.
I will not answer your question regarding doctors…where you are actually wrong on the most basic level possible because the people who actually do these things and develop the science are “scientists”, not clinical doctors. Doctors see patients and/or perform surgery. There are very, very good reasons why cell lines are kept–not just this cell line, a ton of cell lines. Hundreds of them used in all manner of research, both animal and human lines.
I’ve not predicted the future–I’ve drawn on the past. The last time we had an exchange on contraception I put forth peer reviewed studies, MEDICAL TEXTBOOK references, and the best and brightest information to show you you were wrong. You responded with, effectively, “yeah but you’re wrong and the science is wrong”. In other words, you pissed on the information I gave you because it didn’t jive with your preconceived and INACCURATE misunderstandings regarding basic chemistry and biology. We had another exchange regarding certain chemicals in the environment where I once more told you the scientific underpinnings regarding your mistaken position. I did both these rather politely. You then stuck your metaphorical fingers in your ears and started metaphorically yelling.
A person who does this once, let alone repeatedly, is not interested in understanding anything. Especially when they bring up the “dead babies in vaccines” line of “argument”. I remarked as such, and that is precisely why I have not bothered to rehash any more science for you personally in threads regarding your posts. It’s not predicting the future, it’s being historically literate. After all, those who don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it. I resolve not to do that. If other people have questions I might decide to answer theirs.
Soylent Green is people! IT’S PEEEEEOOPLE!! Except… you know…it’s not soylent green OR people in these discussions I’ve already had with you. [/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How about the children who die after being vaccinated?[/quote]
Yes, there are risks associated with vaccination. Seeing as the vast majority are willing to take those risks, leeches like you and other “anti-vax” people can live without intense worry of preventable diseases.
You’re the equivalent of the Welfare Queen at Starbucks with $2,200 of tattoos, an iPhone and paying with an EBT card.
You can’t be this dumb…
Couple thousand incidences of harm > people dying in droves of preventable diseases.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Actually I do not. Like you said, our bodies are an amazing organism. As such our bodies work far better than any man-made thing we can ingest. You might be able to think of one example or two, but those examples were not that way from the very start and they do NOT represent the whole.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Do you give your kids Tylenol when they have a fever?[/quote]
[/quote]
You sit there and let your kids suffer with fevers and sickness, and then turn around and lecture people about abortion?
Are you fucking serious?
You literally sit back and watch your own children needlessly suffer, over and over and over again, but because your wife carried them to term you think you have the high moral ground?
Holy shit. You make me want to be pro choice so as not to be associated with you. wow.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You sit there and let your kids suffer with fevers and sickness, and then turn around and lecture people about abortion?
Are you fucking serious?
You literally sit back and watch your own children needlessly suffer, over and over and over again, but because your wife carried them to term you think you have the high moral ground?
Holy shit. You make me want to be pro choice so as not to be associated with you. wow. [/quote]
Fortunately people like him are the vast minority. Don’t give up the cause just yet ;). People like you and me make up much more of the movement.
I spotted this a long time ago, which is why I’ve not had any real conversation with him. It’s like talking with people who think Kubrick faked the moon landing…it’s just not worth using my daily allotment of time on this earth to do.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Holy shit. You make me want to be pro choice so as not to be associated with you. wow. [/quote]
This is basically why I don’t respond to him…
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I asked why some people are worried about others having their children vaccinated. Yet you claimed I said my kids would die. I talked about my kids after referring to how I had chicken pox as a kid and I never died. My mistake in not placing the point in a separate paragraph, but please take your own advice and cease putting words, ideas and morals in my mouth. I do not intend that as an attack but I refuse to type in a gentle way so others? feelings are not hurt. That most likely explains why some posters on these boards block my posts jaa jaa jaa jaa![/quote]
No. I quoted your post in my first response to you. Here it is because apparently you are unable to read accurately:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If everyone has vaccinations, why is everyone so concerned about a few kids who are not vaccinated? My second question is if doctors are so advanced in what they can do, why do they still use the same line of cells to create vaccinations against viruses. Third, people die from all sorts of diseases everyday. I never died from chicken pox so you presume my children will die unless they are vaccinated. I am very impressed that you will talk to me even though you can predict the future where I cannot. edited because I saw my mistakes this time ; )[/quote]
I presumed nothing. Did I say your kid would die? No. Don’t put words in my mouth. [/quote]
I bolded and underlined your flat out lie. I never said anything of the sort. YOU brought that up. YOU said “So you presume my children will die”. I did not. Don’t fucking lie. At least have the fucking courtesy to lie about something that’s not BLATANTLY PROVABLY FALSE IN YOUR OWN DAMNED EXPLICIT WORDS.
Oh, and people don’t block you because you “refuse to type in a gentle way”. They block you because you’re an idiot and troll that twists people words, as you have just done–and PROVABLY so–here with me. For the umpteenth time. This whole post is an explicit example.
[quote]Doctors are at the very basic level human and as humans we all make mistakes. If you want to get into a discussion about science we can do that but something tells me in your responses that you believe you cannot be wrong and therefore I am mistaken. That flies in the face of logic so I will save you the trouble of showing me how wrong I am.
So peer reviewed studies and articles are the gold standard of medical science? The references to textbooks prove that contraception does not kill a child? If these sources fly against logic, reason and basic high school level biology then I am wrong? Jajajaja, you can hold your breath and tell me over and over again how I am mistaken. If it sounds like crap, looks like crap and smells like crap, I hate to tell you your sources are crap. ALL birth control except the barriers like condoms or diaphragms are by their very definitions abortifacient. If you do not believe me, please read the literature from Partial Personhood clinics and quote to me how they work. Please provide the actual literature from the clinic and not some source that fits your argument.
Referencing a movie from 1973 does what? Prove you were born before me and I have to admit you are right? Oh wait, you have to be right because your life proves you have more experience in being mistaken ; ) But seriously, what was your point in bring up the movie?[/quote]
No, I do NOT want to get into a scientific discussion with you. Because you are fucking scientifically illiterate while I do this for a living. Not only are you scientifically illiterate, but you are completely and utterly closed to LEARNING SHIT YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT SCIENCE. Or anything else for that matter.
I am not–repeat NOT–going to rehash the basic fundamentals of biology, science and medicine. To quote Tom Nichols from the Federalist: “This subverts any real hope of a conversation, because it is simply exhausting–at least speaking from my perspective as the policy expert in most of these discussions–to have to start from the very beginning of every argument and establish the merest baseline of knowledge, and then constantly to have to negotiate the rules of logical argument.”
You are a walking, inexplicably talking, exemplar of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The point of bringing up the movie should have been obvious.
Kneedragger,
Do you take prescription med (if needed, of course lol).
Why or why not?
I’d gone sorta absentee on these forums for a few weeks except for keeping my training log up to date. I can’t believe that I’ve missed more action on the vaccine topic!
-
PonyWhisperer, I think we should be friends.
-
Aragorn, I am sorry that I was not here to chime in. I vow to be more vigilant on vaccine threads!
Revisiting the original topic: I am a staunch supporter of vaccination (disclosure: I am a public health professional, although infectious diseases are not my specialty; however, I have graduate-school classmates that work as infectious disease epidemiologists for the CDC). However, I do not support compulsory vaccination. Sensible people already vaccinate their kids; don’t need to reach them. I do worry that conspiracy theorists, if they are legally FORCED to vaccinate their kids, will only get louder and more dogmatic in their opposition to the “toxic” vaccines, and eventually will blame the vaccines they HAD to give their child for every little thing that goes wrong over the next 18 years.
In my perfect world, we will just keep educating people and explaining that vaccines are safe, effective, and DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM…and eventually we’ll get closer and closer to 100 percent vaccination, while the anti-vaxxer movement shrinks gradually and someday dies a natural death.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
I’d gone sorta absentee on these forums for a few weeks except for keeping my training log up to date. I can’t believe that I’ve missed more action on the vaccine topic!
-
PonyWhisperer, I think we should be friends.
-
Aragorn, I am sorry that I was not here to chime in. I vow to be more vigilant on vaccine threads!
Revisiting the original topic: I am a staunch supporter of vaccination (disclosure: I am a public health professional, although infectious diseases are not my specialty; however, I have graduate-school classmates that work as infectious disease epidemiologists for the CDC). However, I do not support compulsory vaccination. Sensible people already vaccinate their kids; don’t need to reach them. I do worry that conspiracy theorists, if they are legally FORCED to vaccinate their kids, will only get louder and more dogmatic in their opposition to the “toxic” vaccines, and eventually will blame the vaccines they HAD to give their child for every little thing that goes wrong over the next 18 years.
In my perfect world, we will just keep educating people and explaining that vaccines are safe, effective, and DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM…and eventually we’ll get closer and closer to 100 percent vaccination, while the anti-vaxxer movement shrinks gradually and someday dies a natural death.[/quote]
Good to hear from you again! Hopefully your training is going well sir. Your ideal world is also mine; I am an advocate for a Constitutionally bound government–although definitely not a minarchist or anarcho-capitalist–and as much as I can’t stand anti-vaccine nonsense I very certainly do not want anybody forced to inject anything simply for being alive. That is even worse by a few orders of magnitude.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How about the children who die after being vaccinated?[/quote]
Yes, there are risks associated with vaccination. Seeing as the vast majority are willing to take those risks, leeches like you and other “anti-vax” people can live without intense worry of preventable diseases.
You’re the equivalent of the Welfare Queen at Starbucks with $2,200 of tattoos, an iPhone and paying with an EBT card.
You can’t be this dumb…
Couple thousand incidences of harm > people dying in droves of preventable diseases.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Actually I do not. Like you said, our bodies are an amazing organism. As such our bodies work far better than any man-made thing we can ingest. You might be able to think of one example or two, but those examples were not that way from the very start and they do NOT represent the whole.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Do you give your kids Tylenol when they have a fever?[/quote]
[/quote]
You sit there and let your kids suffer with fevers and sickness, and then turn around and lecture people about abortion?
Are you fucking serious?
You literally sit back and watch your own children needlessly suffer, over and over and over again, but because your wife carried them to term you think you have the high moral ground?
Holy shit. You make me want to be pro choice so as not to be associated with you. wow. [/quote]
Don’t be pro-choice. Just be pro-vax. Anti-vax people are completely nuts, and I don’t understand how anti-vaxxers can be legal parents.
Crap, I came in here because I thought it was about vacations. Now I see it’s just about getting shots.