Making my Own Preworkout

[quote]redgladiator wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
If you gotta take a bunch of stimulants or extreme pump 6,000 type shit you need to get 1, get healthy 2, get motivated. My .02[/quote]
There are plenty of healthy motivated people who take stimulants[/quote]

That’s ground breaking info there. Yes, what you said is true and not to mention very broad.
When someone is clueless to what they “need to take” they most likely just need to concentrate on what they are eating and how motivated they are. Supps come after a good diet and work ethic.

If you’re still looking for pure pumps, agmatine gives me crazy pumps…little pricey though

Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet.

An iPod Shuffle with a hard and heavy playlist is a damn good motivator.

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

I know caffeine is a mild vasoconstrictor, and does not have a huge impact on peripheral VC. It’s not like a pack a day habit. The other supps that promote nitric oxide release, are not negated by caffeine consumption to the extent they are cancelled out. I tried a google search just now but couldn’t really find anything extensive above what I already know. I didn’t even know it was a VC until i started using DMAA a couple years ago. I’ll have to check out pubmed and see if there have been any studies on caffeine and nitric oxide inhibition. In terms of personal experience, caffeine doesn’t seem to impact pumps at all.

[quote]mathew260 wrote:

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

I know caffeine is a mild vasoconstrictor, and does not have a huge impact on peripheral VC. It’s not like a pack a day habit. The other supps that promote nitric oxide release, are not negated by caffeine consumption to the extent they are cancelled out. I tried a google search just now but couldn’t really find anything extensive above what I already know. I didn’t even know it was a VC until i started using DMAA a couple years ago. I’ll have to check out pubmed and see if there have been any studies on caffeine and nitric oxide inhibition. In terms of personal experience, caffeine doesn’t seem to impact pumps at all. [/quote]

I’ve tried just about every pre-workout under the sun. Well, it’s been awhile since I’ve used any but I still think I’ve tried most of the big ones out there and I never really noticed a huge difference, pump wise. On the other hand, I’ve gone non pre-workout with a handful of l-arginine tabs(which is supposed to do jack shit on it’s own, or at least that’s what the science says)and had the best pumps of my life. This leads me to believe caffeine does inhibit the effects of vasodilation supplements when taken together to some extent, or it really doesn’t matter what supplements to take if you don’t work hard for that pump. I’m leaning towards the latter. Unless someone can chime in about getting a wicked pump by taking vasodilators while sitting on the couch watching tv.

I’m not saying those supplements are worthless either, I’m just saying we might be fooling ourselves a bit on how effective and or necessary they are.

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:

[quote]mathew260 wrote:

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

I know caffeine is a mild vasoconstrictor, and does not have a huge impact on peripheral VC. It’s not like a pack a day habit. The other supps that promote nitric oxide release, are not negated by caffeine consumption to the extent they are cancelled out. I tried a google search just now but couldn’t really find anything extensive above what I already know. I didn’t even know it was a VC until i started using DMAA a couple years ago. I’ll have to check out pubmed and see if there have been any studies on caffeine and nitric oxide inhibition. In terms of personal experience, caffeine doesn’t seem to impact pumps at all. [/quote]

I’ve tried just about every pre-workout under the sun. Well, it’s been awhile since I’ve used any but I still think I’ve tried most of the big ones out there and I never really noticed a huge difference, pump wise. On the other hand, I’ve gone non pre-workout with a handful of l-arginine tabs(which is supposed to do jack shit on it’s own, or at least that’s what the science says)and had the best pumps of my life. This leads me to believe caffeine does inhibit the effects of vasodilation supplements when taken together to some extent, or it really doesn’t matter what supplements to take if you don’t work hard for that pump. I’m leaning towards the latter. Unless someone can chime in about getting a wicked pump by taking vasodilators while sitting on the couch watching tv.

I’m not saying those supplements are worthless either, I’m just saying we might be fooling ourselves a bit on how effective and or necessary they are. [/quote]

Hmm. Yea it depends on which one you were using. Most, at the minimum dose do not have enough ingredients to increase nitric oxide levels to the degree where it would be noticeable. It also depends on diet and all the other secondary factors. Carbs, vegetables and fruits all increase nitric oxide levels and carbs contribute a great deal to pumps, so all things equal, it would be interesting to see if caffeine is the difference. I take upwards of 300-500 g on some and days don’t notice any difference. I also take my own pre- workout blend currently, which includes 6 g of citrulline malate, and my wife notices a HUGE difference if you catch my drift. Things like aspirin, and garlic can make a difference in blood circulation so a weekend of Italian food, and a backache or two followed by a Monday with sets of 8-12 will give you a workout with insane pumps. Opposed to Friday morning after a light breakfast, late hours all week, cigars with poker the night before and a Waterbury 10x3 day.

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

Caffeine is a vasodilator (slight unless at high doses), it obviously increases heart rate, but it does not cause vasoconstriction.
That said, I’m pretty sure that it’s pre-workout benefits are the stimulant effects and not the vasodilation.

[quote]mathew260 wrote:

Hmm. Yea it depends on which one you were using. Most, at the minimum dose do not have enough ingredients to increase nitric oxide levels to the degree where it would be noticeable. It also depends on diet and all the other secondary factors. Carbs, vegetables and fruits all increase nitric oxide levels and carbs contribute a great deal to pumps, so all things equal, it would be interesting to see if caffeine is the difference. I take upwards of 300-500 g on some and days don’t notice any difference. I also take my own pre- workout blend currently, which includes 6 g of citrulline malate, and my wife notices a HUGE difference if you catch my drift. Things like aspirin, and garlic can make a difference in blood circulation so a weekend of Italian food, and a backache or two followed by a Monday with sets of 8-12 will give you a workout with insane pumps. Opposed to Friday morning after a light breakfast, late hours all week, cigars with poker the night before and a Waterbury 10x3 day.
[/quote]

You touched on something that I failed to mention, that being most recommended dosages being fairly ineffective for most people. When I was taking pre-workouts, I would usually take 3-4 times the recommended amounts. I know, they all say that will kill you but for the average person with out heart problems it’s usually fine. Still, my results were pretty consistent with what I stated before, little to no improvement over nothing at all with caffeine in play.

Like you mentioned, pre-workout drinks are one of countless variables, and you described that very eloquently so I won’t reiterate, I just wanted to mention that I am in full agreement with you when you say that diet and the associated metabolic chemistry of said diet plays a huge role.

At the end of the day, caffeine’s possible effect of vasoconstriction is probably miniscule at best, but still seems counter intuitive in theory to me. And in my own experience, I seem to do better not including it with my training. I would imagine everyone is a little different here and the best advice is to probably follow one of the golden rules and that is just finding what works best for the individual.

What I find interesting is the first generation of NO supps were arginine and people talked about these insane pumps. So they must be effective on some level and obviously very effective for some. I am always wAry of studies, they tend to show what people who are funding them want to show, and in my opinion useless in terms of individual analysis. Metaanalysis of dozens of studies tend to be more reflective of real world results.

My first experience with that line of products was nitrix and man what an awful supp in more ways than one." 4 horse pills 3-4 times a day, 30 minutes after a meal, 30 before a meal on the 5th lunar cycle, when the clock strikes 5 minutes till 12 in the 1st qtr of the year of the dragon for full effect. " The most effective pump/Strength/ energy supplement I have used so far that was the most well rounded product was superpump. That really gave great pumps. The other concentrated products I have used didnt deliver the same pump, but definitely more in terms of energy.

Couldn’t agree more with In the end yes it always comes down to what works for you. Really interested to see how the supplement industry does with genetics and nanotechnology. Our kids, kids will be using some interesting supplements.

[quote]mathew260 wrote:
Why don’t you just buy a pre-workout supp? Much easier than taking all of these individual products. Im a big fan of glutamine, definitely notice better pumps and fuller muscles in general. arginine is useless really so dont bother with that. . With the citrulline, glutamine, and creatine that should be a great stack for pre- workout, then add in the extra leucine to your postworkout shake. this article talks about the role glutamine plays on cell volumization and how taking it prior to leucine primes the cell to absorb leucine something like 20 times faster, resulting in greater hydration and thereby anabolism.

[/quote]

Hi Mathew260,

I have a question about that article you linked to. I’ve read it a couple of times through, and I’m unclear in what order the glutamine or the leucine should be taken.

You said glutamine pre and leucine post. The article says:

So this seems to imply that glutamine should come first, before leucine. But later the article says this:

Here it says glutamine post and leucine pre. So I’m confused. I’m probably just misunderstanding something in the article.

Would you or anyone else be able to please lend a hand clearing up my confusion about the correct order to take these supps? My apologies in advance if this is otherwise pretty simple stuff. It just seems to me that there’s some inconsistency or contradictory information, but maybe I’m misreading and misunderstanding the article.

Thanks in advance.

I see where you are confused, and I am not 100% certain either, but I think he is stating training depletes glutamine production so taking the leucine and BCAA’s prior to training, when the glutamine levels are high enough to provide the catalyst for leucine, you avoid the problem of lacking enough glutamine to act as a substrate for leucine.

He uses the term BCAA’s and Leucine “are also useful” during the pre-workout period for the body’s own glutamine production. So he might be saying they can also be taken prior as well. So as long as you are taking gluamine post workout.

Good question, but I am just guessing here, as to what he meant. I don’t think it matters all that much. I use it before and during, as it has shown to be a plasma bicarbonate, meaning it buffers lactic acid during training. Since most protein powders already contain either glutamine precursors, peptipes, or glutamine, I don’t worry to much about post supplementation.

Both Biotest peptides contain L glutamate, which the body can make into L-glutamine. Again though, not certain if that is sufficient or occurs fast enough to affect the Leucine.

I would just break it up if you are concerned and experiment to see which one delivers the most benefit. When it doubt, try it out is always the best option with this sort of thing. If I was simply taking the Biotest peptides, glutamine, and my MD. I would add all three to my pre and post shake in 5-10 gram doses each shake.

Hopefully either the author or someone who got a better grade in their biochem class can chime in : )

[quote]Mdgray82 wrote:

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

Caffeine is a vasodilator (slight unless at high doses), it obviously increases heart rate, but it does not cause vasoconstriction.
That said, I’m pretty sure that it’s pre-workout benefits are the stimulant effects and not the vasodilation.[/quote]

I know the release of epinephrine depending on whether they act on the alpha or beta cells can cause cont, or dila. So thank for chiming in. I will definitely have to look more into this, any links would be great. Thanks

[quote]mathew260 wrote:

[quote]Mdgray82 wrote:

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:
Something I never understood:

If the point of pre-workout supplements are in part to give you these awesome pumps, why do most(if not all of them)contain insane amounts of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor? I’m not saying caffeine is bad by any means, but it does the exact opposite of what you want when you lift weights. After all the aakg, citrulline malate, etc, in addition to the caffeine, you are probably at the same place you started before you drank your pre-workout, but about $30 lighter in your wallet. [/quote]

Caffeine is a vasodilator (slight unless at high doses), it obviously increases heart rate, but it does not cause vasoconstriction.
That said, I’m pretty sure that it’s pre-workout benefits are the stimulant effects and not the vasodilation.[/quote]

I know the release of epinephrine depending on whether they act on the alpha or beta cells can cause cont, or dila. So thank for chiming in. I will definitely have to look more into this, any links would be great. Thanks [/quote]

Caffeine is a phosphodiesterase inhibitor peripherally (it actually has multiple mechanisms of action depending on the site), specifically the enzyme that breaks down the molecule cAMP, increased cAMP in vascular smooth muscle leads to vasodilation.

Unfortunately most of the resources I use are medical school textbooks/ learned it at some point. The wikipedia link for caffeine is quite accurate though (at a glance), as an aside it’s funny how accurate most of wikipedia is as long as you stay away from some history or anything with major controversy.

For post workout, if you’re not trying to cut and aren’t “milk-phobic” like a lot are, I would suggest making your PWO shake with milk. Added cals and carbs.

If you’re looking for a pure ergogenic, then I would suggest this:

-60mg 1,3 dimethylamylamine
-100-300mg caffeine (to taste)
-400-600mg sulbutiamin

It was “invented” by a guy who posts on another forum I’m active in. He dubs it the “Stim Pack”. Don’t exceed 3 doses per week, or you will build a tolerance. Sulb tastes like shit, reportedly, so watch out.