T Nation

Making My Own Periworkout

[quote]eaboadar wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s another thread where using Surge Recovery as a more-economical base is discussed relatively extensively, with example methods of “punching it up” according to funds available, and still staying mid-priced.

Another approach not mentioned there would be to add the leucine peptides in an amount according to personal affordability. However, according to money available I’d probably approach it as add MAG-10 if most limited on what can be budgeted, or add Anaconda if having a little more freedom there.

I’m viewing leucine peptides as being at a level where I’d already be using Anaconda and MAG-10 before going to the peptides.[/quote]

Bill, if already using Anaconda and MAG-10, what would be the best way to use the Leucine and BCAAs peptides. I have some left but don’t really know how to work them in my regimen. Thanks!

PS: Sorry for the hijack OP[/quote]

The best way to use up the leucine if you’re already taking Anaconda and MAG-10 would be to simply add it to your existing whole food meals. Just have a scoops worth prior to eating your whole food meal, especially that first post-training meal you have.

Bill Roberts, says; I have not used this myself, nor have I had direct contact with any one who has, so I hate to speculate. Sorry to hyjack, but this statement is why Bill is God on this site,

I’m having such a hard time deciding what I’m going to do. I guess I’m looking to take a supplement that I can get the most out of for an affordable price. I have been lifting for almost a year and a half and the only thing I have taken is a mass gainer and protein powder. I’m looking for something, I just don’t know what.

I’m debating making my own peri workout, using an already established periworkout at smaller doses, or maybe even Carbolin 19. Seems like there are some really knowledgable guys in this thread right now and it would be cool to have you try and steer me in the right direction.

Thanks

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
I’m having such a hard time deciding what I’m going to do. I guess I’m looking to take a supplement that I can get the most out of for an affordable price. I have been lifting for almost a year and a half and the only thing I have taken is a mass gainer and protein powder. I’m looking for something, I just don’t know what.

I’m debating making my own peri workout, using an already established periworkout at smaller doses, or maybe even Carbolin 19. Seems like there are some really knowledgable guys in this thread right now and it would be cool to have you try and steer me in the right direction.

Thanks [/quote]

I would say given you’re still relatively new to lifting and that price needs to be taken into consideration it leaves you with two choices most likely. Those two choices would be to either get Surge Recovery or Surge Workout Fuel, i think most will steer you towards Surge Recovery.

You shouldn’t even consider something like Carbolin 19 at this point in time, focus on some of the basics, first be sure your diet is in check and that you’re eating the proper amounts to grow next look at peri-workout nutrition, which as i said w/your training experience, i think Surge Recovery will be of great benefit to you and keep you covered for that part of the day.

We could( and Bill Roberts may as he’s done previously) get into mixing and matching different combos to save money and still be effective but i think for a relative beginner its easier to keep it simple, get the diet and check and get some Surge Recovery for workout nutrition and then as you get further along you can step up to more advanced products.

I will say also that the new store layout is pretty great in helping decide what’s right for people, given it separates the products now by goals and even ingredients so it makes it much easier to pick and choose now, something to think about. This is just my 2cents though, i’m sure someone smarter like Mr. Roberts will chime in.

Thanks for the help eazy, that was really informative. I guess I have a few more questions though. The first is taking into consideration that I eat a pretty good high calorie meal after my workout every day (subway or home cooked), would you still recommend Surge recovery rather than workout fuel? I’m looking to start sipping this a little before training and finish it during the session (if my stomach tolerates).

Second, I know it may be real pain in the ass but would you and BIll get into the mixing and matching to show me a good alternative? I guess it would be nice to compare price and also see what would make a good peri workout supplement from the ground up. i’m always looking to learn and this stuff is pretty interesting

Not a pain in the ass at all – it wouldn’t be even if doing from fresh – but in this case it happens the exact thing is right here:

But as Eazy said, you really could use just the Surge Recovery as described in that thread, or as in the original protocol for using it pre-workout.

Where the Anaconda / MAG-10 protocol becomes more important and really shines is where either:

  1. A lifter is advanced enough and has been training long, consistently, and well enough that the situation is that he’s glad to see only a relatively small amount of added muscle per year, in other words fast muscle addition just aren’t happening anymore using standard things. And this really is the case for many. Otherwise, if you could add say 3 lb of muscle a month consistently, or even most months of the year, for years on end, we’d have lean 500 lb guys, or bigger than that even. Not so, instead plateaus are reached from which further gains tend to be very slow indeed, without doing something that is substantially better.

  2. The training program is going to be beyond what the lifter could support ordinarily.

  3. Where both are true at the same time, which is good because if wanting to break through #1, it can be very beneficial to take approach #2.

However, for most neither are actually the case and it’s not necessary to excellent gains to use the most advanced approach possible. There can be a further edge to doing so, and it is enjoyable to get still better results, but it’s not necessary, and so if it’s financially problematic, then by no means feel any need as you can do fine without any custom mixing.

If wanting to follow CT’s training protocols though, if just unable to do the full supplementation protocol he suggests and has based the training loads on I would try combining Surge Recovery and MAG-10 to get as close as individually possible.

Thanks for the link Bill, tons of information in that one thread. I guess I should have been more clear though. What I meant by mixing and matching was helping me create a drink using stuff like BCAA’s/ Lecuine, and gatorade powder (just and example as idk what should be included), rather than an actual premade supplement (like Surge/Anaconda) .

Any chance you could help me devise a good “recipe”, and compare it to Surge products. I know that is pretty in depth and a lot to ask but I would appreciate the effort. If not you’ve already been really helpful so far

Ah, gotcha.

I’ve never looked into Gatorade powder and so don’t know what that starting point is. I’m familiar with the content of the Gatorade drinks though and really and truly, that product is a matter of key marketing principles executed well. These principles include “It’s better to be first than to be better.”

The first brand in a category usually becomes and remains the market leader. What’s the difference between Tylenol and other brands of acetaminophen? It’s the identical substance, identical dosing, identical really in every way but brand name. The difference is, Tylenol was first.

Advil? The first ibuprofen brand to enter, still the leader decades later. Again, no actual difference in product.

Gatorade was the first sports drink and that, combined with competent follow-up marketing and a big ad budget every year, is why it is the market leader. The reason isn’t that it’s better than any run of the mill stuff.

Unless having it on hand already, I wouldn’t see a reason to start with it. 1/4 tsp of salt and 1/4 tsp of “light salt” (potassium chloride) and there are your electrolytes. Or 1/2 tsp of a salt that is already a premix of the two. Glucose can be purchased at the health food stores; maltodextrin isn’t hard to order. Actually there are many grades to maltodextrin and differing properties with regard to how easily it dissolves, but for a basic effort that shouldn’t be too much of a deal. If you use only glucose that would be fine for lower carb content such as up to about 50 g/L, but for higher carb content it would be desirable to combine with maltodextrin or use maltodextrin only.

As for the leucine, 5-10 g of total leucine content. If using BCAA’s, 10-25 g. At the higher amounts there would be no need to add separate leucine as well.

You’d still be short on having a hydrolyzed protein.

I’m not a logo whore,and I get nothing from a bottle of gatorade,but for some reason the container of powdered gatorade from grocery store is different(wish I had a can here at home,suddenly curious)two scoops of this with a little whey gives awesome pumps,I swear. anyway I’m off to surf the net, to find gatorade info(snowed in today)latter

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
Thanks for the link Bill, tons of information in that one thread. I guess I should have been more clear though. What I meant by mixing and matching was helping me create a drink using stuff like BCAA’s/ Lecuine, and gatorade powder (just and example as idk what should be included), rather than an actual premade supplement (like Surge/Anaconda) .

Any chance you could help me devise a good “recipe”, and compare it to Surge products. I know that is pretty in depth and a lot to ask but I would appreciate the effort. If not you’ve already been really helpful so far [/quote]

In short and i think what Bill may agree with is you can try to duplicate things all you want through your own raw materials but in the end its more of a pain in the ass and only marginally saves you money in the long run. It’s much easier to simply take something that is already proven and formulated precisely and spend that extra time your not mixing a 100 things together on training and diet.

oh and I believe maltodextrin can be purchased cheap at whine making store(heard this on line, so never know)

for myself it’s hard to give suplement recomondations, becauese I respect what T nation provides us with,and it’s probably easier like easy said to just buy it

Just a question, why do you reccommend Surge recovery as opposed to Surge workout fuel? I’m not doubting you, just curious as to this decision.

It depends on whether getting the protein hydrolysate is important, given the circumstance, or isn’t. For example with most athletic training there really isn’t a need for much protein intake, if any. If not, then SWF has other advantages that SR does not (citrulline malate, beta alanine, and a carb formulation that gives lower osmolality and can give faster stomach emptying, as well as having palatinose.)

Personally I favor a pretty high protein intake from hydroysate for pre- and during workout, so that’s why the SR when planning for a lower cost protocol that doesn’t include Anaconda or MAG-10.

Thanks BIll. One last set of questions and I’ll leave you alone haha. I’ve decided to go with either SR or SWF and creatine. I can def afford this for the next 5 months but my living situation will change after and I may have to scrap it. We’ll see. I have a few questions though

  1. creatine monohydrate vs creatine malate. ( I was thinking of going with malate cause of previous GI issues)

  2. SR or SWF, (my main goal is increasing muscle mass and strength, I’m currently bulking)

  3. Lastly creatine says to drink immediately after mixing. Is it bad if I mix with SR or SWF and drink half a little before session, then the rest during? Or will this cause upset stomach or reduced effects?

Thanks so much again BIll you’ve been extremely helpful and really informative.

Creatine malate is so inexpensive, 5 cents per serving, that even when quite short of money when finding any added benefit at all versus the monohydrate, it’s being really cheap to miss that benefit for the sake of 5 cents. And actually it’s not even a savings of 5 cents because that was treating the monohydrate as free, when although it’s low priced also, it’s not completely free.

SR in this situation, due to the hydrolysate.

There’s no problem of any kind with using the creatine as you describe. It takes much longer than this for it to lose potency.

You’re very welcome!

[quote]Eazy wrote:
You shouldn’t even consider something like Carbolin 19 at this point in time, focus on some of the basics, first be sure your diet is in check and that you’re eating the proper amounts to grow next look at peri-workout nutrition, which as i said w/your training experience, i think Surge Recovery will be of great benefit to you and keep you covered for that part of the day.
[/quote]

OP: you worry too much about supps. While I don’t particularly care for Wendler’s writing, I think someone like you could benefit a great deal from a healthy dose of his message.

Haha I actually like most of Wendler’s stuff. I’ve been lifting for almost a year and a half now (not long at all) and I have stayed away from supps so far. Only thing I’ve taken is protein powder and a mass gainer (serious health reasons kept me from getting calories).

I’m not pretending I need the supplement, nor do I think it is absolutely necessary. I just want to get the most out of my training and I feel like proper peri workout nutrition would probably be the best place to start. I’m looking to get a supplement for the first time and I analyze the shit out of everything that goes into me. I also want to get the most for what little hard earned money I have haha.

But yes, if Wendler were here he would prlly slap me in the face and tell me to eat more, then prlly say something along the lines of majoring in the minors.

You can do your own mix…

You male?

I like the idea of mixing up potassium citrate, magnesium citrate, zinc picolinate (Calcium otherwise), dextrose, leucine or amino blend, or carnivor, and citruline… Use your old grape flavored stuff if from Biotest to make a grape drank… Add creatine and caffeine to your desire.

Like surge workout fuel, but get rid of beta alanine and swap calcium for zinc since there is already virtually no calcium in this, and guys need zinc.

I wouldn’t avoid sodium. (Of course, that may have been an inadvertent omission.)

There has been a lot of drum-beating treating sodium like the devil or a thing to be avoided, but used well, it is your friend, particularly when training hard.

From experience though, it is as Eazy said: all this winds up being a quite substantial pain in the ass. I couldn’t begin to figure how many times I’ve made custom mixes, but this was worthwhile for two reasons: first because much of this was pre-Anaconda, and second because this is in my line of work so the experience gained is potentially valuable. But in general, if valuing one’s time at all, making custom mixes isn’t a very good use of time. It can be fun though if liking that sort of thing; I’m just saying that there is no actual need and there is a time/money tradeoff even if managing to come up with an equally good workout drink, which won’t be the case if saving a really substantial amount of money.

It does always strike me as odd, except in the case where money really is very limited (only the actual necessities are being spent already plus a very small amount of discretionary money) where those who are very enthusiastic about training will readily spend $5 here, $10 there, $20 there on things they could easily drop and would scarcely miss, but are reluctant to put more than pennies or a couple of bucks into workout nutrition.

For example, enjoying wine, and routinely spending $5 - $10 more per bottle of wine compared to other wines which they actually do enjoy also, just not quite as much. People by the millions will spend $3 on a bottle of 5-hour Energy!! Maybe it is because paying for, typically, 12 or more servings at a time of workout products multiplies the price out?