Three questions: How is one able to tell the difference between sodium and subcutaneous water retention and actual fat? How long after returning to maintenance from a bulking cycle does it typically last? Roughly how much can this retention affect skinfold measurements from both a mm and % standpoint?
excellent questions Eric, I don’t know the actual answer but here is what I do, when I wake up, before I drink or eat and after I piss, I look in the mirror determine how well I am progressing and if I am gaining too much fat . I don’t know about everyone else but right before bed I am holding so much water it is ridiculous.
Would the “3 week leaning/3 weeks bulking” be a good idea for newbies? Following the GVT2000 program.
Eric,
Good question, one I asked myself…the way i figured it out is becuase i keep detailed records of my nutrition through an excel database which i have been building since last may…it has all the foods i eat/supplments etc. and by tracking my sodium and visual appearance on a scale of 1 to 5 in the morning (Likert Rating scale) i am able to predict (through multiple regression techiniques I have learned in statistics courses for psychology) ballpark ideas on what my subcutaneous water retention is…
its sounds complicated, but once you are taught statistics, they are powerful.
bascially, if you look at yourself in the am, you’ll notice yourself seemingly a little bit leaner…especially in the abs…this is becuase of teh dehydrating effect of sleep during which carbs are used up; as they are, small tiny amounts of ketone bodies can begin to be produced which are diuretic in and of themselves…hence, when on a seroius keto diet, you become ripped (if you are already 10% bf of lower to start) right away becuase you lose virutally all subcutaneous water due to the ketons (although you haven’t lost any fat)
Just track shit out and you’ll notice…there is no magical way to tell, but i do believe subcutanous water is a big player in the ultra sliced ripped…
ps. try to keep sodium (on a percentage level) between 150-175% a day if you are working out.
Mufasa - this is some good stuff. I think that when it all comes down to it, most of use do this so that we look good. Therefore, although the numbers are good overall, your categories need to be refined. Good shape is so general that it needs to be better defined as good bodybuilding shape. I’m sure most people (as well as myself) assumed that is what you meant anyway.
For the most part, every guy I've seen with good abs dwells under 10% and more like 8%. The lowest I've ever been is 10.2% with an ab skinfold of 16mm (much to high) and I could start to see the general outline, but unfortunately my abdominal skinfold accounts for 1/3 of my skinfold total (out of 7 sites). My arms can look shredded and yet I see no sign of abs. I think that to have good abs, you must have an abdominal skinfold less than 10mm. Just what I've seen.
For those of us still working on the ultimate six-pack that as Ian King say “he can store coins in”, what is your bodyfat level and abdominal skinfold? Lots of us would like to know what we really need to plan for.
Wow-you must be the only one I’ve ever met that has actually put stats to good use. I was lucky to stay awake during the three different semester courses I had in prob and stats! Anyway, would there be any value to takng bodyfat measurements upon waking up? It seems that this would give results that are the least influenced by water and sodium retention.
I definately think that taking body composition measurements in the morning is optimal if you are looking for reliability, especially if using skinfolds or bioelectrical impedance. Do a search on the T-mag forum for threads about body composition using skinfolds and the Tanita bioelectrical impedance scales. Specifically search for a thread entitled “Why you don’t like your body comp numbers” and “more help with impedance”. Those threads give a lot of background on the how tos of measuring body comp via skinfolds or impedance.
Jason N and Mufasa – I am glad you gents liked my plan! When I share it with most guys at the gym I just get this very strange stare like I am nuts or something. When I first came to this site I didn’t hear anyone talking about shorter cycles, so I figured that maybe longer cycles worked and that I was just doing it wrong. So not long ago I did a longer 6 month cycle and achieved slightly better results than an equivalent amount time spent doing shorter cycles, but it was absolute torture to me because of the extended dieting. Not only that, but I peaked around 12-14% bf along the way, so I looked really bloated.
There are so many strange patterns that I have noticed that I just can’t seem to explain and are still trying to sort out. Here are a few of them:
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There seems to be this “magic” calorie percentage above maintenance that I have to consume in order to gain any muscle at all. Any lower than this and I go no where fast and higher is the fast track to fatsville. The trouble is that even at this level I tend to start putting on fat at an alarming rate at the tail end of three weeks. Hence the three week number.
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I always assumed that when I leaned out I would have to widdle back down to the same exact fat mass as I was before to look just as defined, but it seems that once I end up back at the same percentage I look just as good as I did before although my fat mass has actually increased a bit every cycle.
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Sometimes I can go several cycles without an apparent LBM gain and sometimes the fat comes off quicker or slower than other times, (generally progressively quicker) but when you look at several cycles the results are just about what I expected or hoped for.
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Sometimes I will gain strength with no apparent size gains except I swear that I feel like I am more dense. It might be my imagination, but I am not sure.
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I almost always have a noticeable increase in my workout pump just prior to dramatic changes in body comp readings and permanent mass gains (as opposed to just water volume).
Those are just a few anomalies that come to mind as I type. It’s hard to quantify the amount of mass per cycle because it may take several cycles before I see the scale tip enough to mean anything, but it works out to be about 1.5-2lbs LBM gain per cycle with a negligible increase in fat mass. The body comp readings seem to be more telling measurement during each phase. The total net effect still puts me back at 6% though. The leaning phases tend to be getting easier in terms of fat loss prolly due the increase in metabolically active muscle tissue while the bulking phases seem to be getting more difficult. My weight is usually all over the place from day to day and makes measurements difficult at times. While leaning I tend to eat “backwards” while eating “forward” during bulking. “Backwards” meaning eating to make up for the workout I just finished as opposed to “Forward” eating which fuels upcoming workouts. I don’t know what role this plays if any.
Sorry for the long wind. Any ideas on these strange patterns? kevo
Hey, anybody got any comments on the fiber questions in my earlier post…also, when on a bulking phase, what HI GI carbs do people eat…esp. post workout…do we eat rice cakes, pasta, what?..i mean, you can’t just eat all low gi carbs becuase fiber counts go through the roof and you need solid amounts of carbs while bulking…I’d be intersted to know…reason being is to determine how much high vs. low gi carbs lead to fat vs. lean gain when bulking.
MrVain68 - even when bulking i still try to eat mainly low GI carbs, but i will also throw in rice, pasta, potatoes, stoneground wheat bread and flaxbread. i have a sweet tooth, so from time to time i may have something a bit sweet. only in moderation though. kevo
I still agree that most carbs should be low GI aside from the first and second meal after a workout even when bulking. When bulking, I’ll usually add more whole grain breads and fruits to go with the staple veggies and oatmeal. I’ll also add more dairy products such as skim milk and lite or plain yogurt to add carbs and protein to the diet. Yogurt is a great way to add a few grams of protein and carbs to a meal and can be eaten almost as a dessert. I do agree that there is probably an upper limit to the body’s ability to handle fiber, but I also think that if fiber intake is spread throughout the day, it will be easier to handle. Eat 60g of fiber in one meal and you’ll get full and won’t really be able to eat right the rest of the day. Spread 60+ grams of fiber over 6-8 meals throughout the day and I think that you can handle it. It may be a good idea for us to also keep track of fiber consumption along with P,C,F and cals. I think I will be adding another column to my food log.