Made In The USA

[quote]Vegita wrote:
orion wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I’m not following some of the sentiments against this idea. If I spend $10 dollars on a shower curtain made in china, lets assume the US retailer gets $4 out of that. the rest of the money goes to the chinese company who made the product, and the shipping company who shipped it over here.

And if I bought an $11 dollar shower curtain that is made in the USA, $11 of those dollars (minus tax of course) are able to be re-spent by an american. So this decision I made has kept approx $6 more circulating in the american economy.

How does this not help our economy out. I’m seriously asking i’m not being rhetorical or anything, it just seems like it would make sense to me.

V

comparative advantage, or rather the loss of it, and inflation.

I do not understand what comparative advantage means and I thought inflation was the result of the fed printing money that is not backed by anything. More money in circulation + less GDP = Higher inflation? Am I wrong? If anything if we kept more money in the US and the fed had to print less as a result, wouldn’t the dollar grow stronger?

V[/quote]

The fed does not have to print anything. It just does.

However, money that sits in Chinese banks is not in circulation. Now just imagine what would happen if they sold your IOU (or not renewed them, same difference) and spent their dollars in the US. That would be the inflatocalypse.

Comparative advantage means that even though you might be better at producing stuff than another country it still does not pay to produce it because you are even better at something else.

It is not hard to see when say England trades wool for Spanish wine. Both are better off. But lets say England could also produce cheaper and better wine that Spain. Should England do that?
Not necessarily. Maybe England is so much better at producing wool that it is best for all involved if they concentrate on doing that and simply buy the wine from Spain.

Samuelson example is this:

Suppose that in a particular city the best lawyer happens also to be the best secretary, that is he would be the most productive lawyer and he would also be the best secretary in town. However, if this lawyer focused on the task of being an attorney and instead of pursuing both occupations at once, employed a secretary, both the output of the lawyer and the secretary would increase.

So, you do not want to compete in the cheap crap business with China, you want to build Computers and Ipods and buy cheap crap from China.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I’m not following some of the sentiments against this idea. If I spend $10 dollars on a shower curtain made in china, lets assume the US retailer gets $4 out of that. the rest of the money goes to the chinese company who made the product, and the shipping company who shipped it over here.

And if I bought an $11 dollar shower curtain that is made in the USA, $11 of those dollars (minus tax of course) are able to be re-spent by an american. So this decision I made has kept approx $6 more circulating in the american economy.

How does this not help our economy out. I’m seriously asking i’m not being rhetorical or anything, it just seems like it would make sense to me.

V[/quote]

2 reasons:

  1. Keeping the “fellow American” employed at an artificially high wage is going to raise inflation meaning the next American is going to have to pay $12 or $13 for the curtain.
  2. Purchasing from china means that they get an extra $6, but it also means that they LOSE (and the USA gains) a shower curtain. Which means increased supply in the US (lower prices for americans buying shower curtains) and reduced supply for China (hence higher prices for chinese people buying shower curtains.

[quote]orion wrote:

So, you do not want to compete in the cheap crap business with China, you want to build Computers and Ipods and buy cheap crap from China.

[/quote]

Good point. My question to you, orion, is when do you think China will move to an economy of scope, as it is pretty much an economy of scale atm. I see China today as the USA of the early 1900s.

As a follow up, reduce this from a national level to a personal level. Just think how much money you would have if you didn’t purchase things from anyone. You could save your entire salary! Sure you would have to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build and fix your car and house, provide your own TV shows from your own television station but you would have lots of money!

As you can clearly see, trade makes sense from an individual level. You will purchance cable TV from a company that specalizes in that even though it reduces the amount of money you have. Why? Because they are better at providing TV shoes due to a number of reasons (specialized knowledge, economies of scale etc.). Why then does it not make sense to purchase goods and services from another country if that country is relatively better at making that product? That benefits you. If the other country refuses to purchase products that your country does well, that hurts them just like someone who decides to build their own car rather than buy one.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The outsourcing that took place has killed us financially, all so companies could save on labor and wages. Trying calling a customer service number for AOL, HP, or some other computer company. You are calling India most likely. It’s a joke. [/quote]

There is only one possible solution and that is to let the Indians move into your country. They will be willing to work for less than your average spoiled American, and money will remain in the country.

But noooo! You love preach the virtues of free trade and such, but when it comes to free movement of people, you’d rather keep artificially inflated wages.

That, my dimwitted friend, is the joke.

[quote]OBoile wrote:
As a follow up, reduce this from a national level to a personal level. Just think how much money you would have if you didn’t purchase things from anyone. You could save your entire salary! Sure you would have to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build and fix your car and house, provide your own TV shows from your own television station but you would have lots of money!

As you can clearly see, trade makes sense from an individual level. You will purchance cable TV from a company that specalizes in that even though it reduces the amount of money you have. Why? Because they are better at providing TV shoes due to a number of reasons (specialized knowledge, economies of scale etc.). Why then does it not make sense to purchase goods and services from another country if that country is relatively better at making that product? That benefits you. If the other country refuses to purchase products that your country does well, that hurts them just like someone who decides to build their own car rather than buy one.[/quote]

Surely then there is a happy medium, I wouldn’t be too well off if I spent every cent I had on goods and services would I? Especially consumables. I mean sure if I bought all gold, I would be ok as far as being prepared for future needs, but if I spent everything I had on bread, what would I have left after a couple weeks? Moldy bread? So it’s not like we can just say, buying any X from china is better off for americans, I mean it matters what we buy from them and how cheaply and with what quality we can buy it from the US. What if my chinese shower curtain starts to degrade in 5 years but the US made one would last for 10, wouldn’t I be better off buying the american made product even though I spent $1 more initially?

V

[quote]lixy wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
The outsourcing that took place has killed us financially, all so companies could save on labor and wages. Trying calling a customer service number for AOL, HP, or some other computer company. You are calling India most likely. It’s a joke.

There is only one possible solution and that is to let the Indians move into your country. They will be willing to work for less than your average spoiled American, and money will remain in the country.

But noooo! You love preach the virtues of free trade and such, but when it comes to free movement of people, you’d rather keep artificially inflated wages.

That, my dimwitted friend, is the joke.[/quote]

What is an average spoiled American? I know what I am worth, and I am willing to go and get what I am worth. I don’t bend over like some people do, it’s too hard to stand up straight after that.

If my wage is artificially inflated, should I ask for less money? Would that make me more stupid? I should go to college, get my degree, work for years gaining valuable experience, and ask for less money? Are you sure I am the dimwitted one?

[quote]Therizza wrote:
orion wrote:

So, you do not want to compete in the cheap crap business with China, you want to build Computers and Ipods and buy cheap crap from China.

Good point. My question to you, orion, is when do you think China will move to an economy of scope, as it is pretty much an economy of scale atm. I see China today as the USA of the early 1900s.[/quote]

I don´t know, but that does not only seem like a question of industrial development but also of culture.

The Japanese are working like mad and are really good at manufacturing things but they are collectivist little worker ants. They are not creative.

The ideas are still supplied by America, but not by the establishment but by some freak in a garage who sees something noone else does. As long as America has that they will probably always lead in some area.

[quote]lixy wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
The outsourcing that took place has killed us financially, all so companies could save on labor and wages. Trying calling a customer service number for AOL, HP, or some other computer company. You are calling India most likely. It’s a joke.

There is only one possible solution and that is to let the Indians move into your country. They will be willing to work for less than your average spoiled American, and money will remain in the country.

But noooo! You love preach the virtues of free trade and such, but when it comes to free movement of people, you’d rather keep artificially inflated wages.

That, my dimwitted friend, is the joke.[/quote]

What does it matter whether the Indians come to the money or the money comes to the Indians?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
OBoile wrote:
As a follow up, reduce this from a national level to a personal level. Just think how much money you would have if you didn’t purchase things from anyone. You could save your entire salary! Sure you would have to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build and fix your car and house, provide your own TV shows from your own television station but you would have lots of money!

As you can clearly see, trade makes sense from an individual level. You will purchance cable TV from a company that specalizes in that even though it reduces the amount of money you have. Why? Because they are better at providing TV shoes due to a number of reasons (specialized knowledge, economies of scale etc.). Why then does it not make sense to purchase goods and services from another country if that country is relatively better at making that product? That benefits you. If the other country refuses to purchase products that your country does well, that hurts them just like someone who decides to build their own car rather than buy one.

Surely then there is a happy medium, I wouldn’t be too well off if I spent every cent I had on goods and services would I? Especially consumables. I mean sure if I bought all gold, I would be ok as far as being prepared for future needs, but if I spent everything I had on bread, what would I have left after a couple weeks? Moldy bread? So it’s not like we can just say, buying any X from china is better off for americans, I mean it matters what we buy from them and how cheaply and with what quality we can buy it from the US. What if my chinese shower curtain starts to degrade in 5 years but the US made one would last for 10, wouldn’t I be better off buying the american made product even though I spent $1 more initially?

V[/quote]

you are introducing new variables and sure, sooner or later it would make sense to buy American. But then you would not buy American to buy American, you would simply choose the better product.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
OBoile wrote:
As a follow up, reduce this from a national level to a personal level. Just think how much money you would have if you didn’t purchase things from anyone. You could save your entire salary! Sure you would have to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build and fix your car and house, provide your own TV shows from your own television station but you would have lots of money!

As you can clearly see, trade makes sense from an individual level. You will purchance cable TV from a company that specalizes in that even though it reduces the amount of money you have. Why? Because they are better at providing TV shoes due to a number of reasons (specialized knowledge, economies of scale etc.). Why then does it not make sense to purchase goods and services from another country if that country is relatively better at making that product? That benefits you. If the other country refuses to purchase products that your country does well, that hurts them just like someone who decides to build their own car rather than buy one.

Surely then there is a happy medium, I wouldn’t be too well off if I spent every cent I had on goods and services would I? Especially consumables. I mean sure if I bought all gold, I would be ok as far as being prepared for future needs, but if I spent everything I had on bread, what would I have left after a couple weeks? Moldy bread? So it’s not like we can just say, buying any X from china is better off for americans, I mean it matters what we buy from them and how cheaply and with what quality we can buy it from the US. What if my chinese shower curtain starts to degrade in 5 years but the US made one would last for 10, wouldn’t I be better off buying the american made product even though I spent $1 more initially?

V[/quote]

Of course there is a happy medium. Also keep in mind that if you are spending all your money buying things, then presumably other people are spending that money buying stuff (that you are an expert in producting) from you. Most of your coutry’s trade happens this way - China is one of the exceptions (and contrary to popular belief, not your biggest trading partner). However, refusing to buy things back from you hurts China as much or more than it hurts you.

Think about it. What good is money if you don’t use it to buy anything from others? All it is then is either pieces of paper or bits of information in the computer. Unless you actually use it, a million dollars is no different than what I’m about to type:
1,000,000.

In this trade, Americans gained a shower curtain. The chinese gained some bits of data in a computer. They have more money yes, but also fewer shower curtains which means that the supply is down and the price will go up for the average chinese citizen.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
OBoile wrote:
As a follow up, reduce this from a national level to a personal level. Just think how much money you would have if you didn’t purchase things from anyone. You could save your entire salary! Sure you would have to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build and fix your car and house, provide your own TV shows from your own television station but you would have lots of money!

As you can clearly see, trade makes sense from an individual level. You will purchance cable TV from a company that specalizes in that even though it reduces the amount of money you have. Why? Because they are better at providing TV shoes due to a number of reasons (specialized knowledge, economies of scale etc.). Why then does it not make sense to purchase goods and services from another country if that country is relatively better at making that product? That benefits you. If the other country refuses to purchase products that your country does well, that hurts them just like someone who decides to build their own car rather than buy one.

Surely then there is a happy medium, I wouldn’t be too well off if I spent every cent I had on goods and services would I? Especially consumables. I mean sure if I bought all gold, I would be ok as far as being prepared for future needs, but if I spent everything I had on bread, what would I have left after a couple weeks? Moldy bread? So it’s not like we can just say, buying any X from china is better off for americans, I mean it matters what we buy from them and how cheaply and with what quality we can buy it from the US. What if my chinese shower curtain starts to degrade in 5 years but the US made one would last for 10, wouldn’t I be better off buying the american made product even though I spent $1 more initially?

V[/quote]

Of course there is a happy medium. Also keep in mind that if you are spending all your money buying things, then presumably other people are spending that money buying stuff (that you are an expert in producting) from you. Most of your coutry’s trade happens this way - China is one of the exceptions (and contrary to popular belief, not your biggest trading partner). However, refusing to buy things back from you hurts China as much or more than it hurts you.

Think about it. What good is money if you don’t use it to buy anything from others? All it is then is either pieces of paper or bits of information in the computer. Unless you actually use it, a million dollars is no different than what I’m about to type:
1,000,000.

In this trade, Americans gained a shower curtain. The chinese gained some bits of data in a computer. They have more money yes, but also fewer shower curtains which means that the supply is down and the price will go up for the average chinese citizen.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I’m talking about individuals making decisions not government nannyism. Also how the fuck is buying american to keep american dollars in the USA tribalism?

How is it not?[/quote]

Ok so what. It’s tribalism. Now what? IS it wrong? Why can’t i practice tribalism if it makes me and my tribe happy?

[quote]Therizza wrote:
orion wrote:

So, you do not want to compete in the cheap crap business with China, you want to build Computers and Ipods and buy cheap crap from China.

Good point. My question to you, orion, is when do you think China will move to an economy of scope, as it is pretty much an economy of scale atm. I see China today as the USA of the early 1900s.[/quote]

That’s exactly what it is. It’s following the same model of growth too.

Somebody who agrees! I say that shit in class and even my TA is like wtf. Basically, gov’t looking out for big business/ unlimited capitalism/ protective trade measures yet extreme export profits/ cheap labor force.

Now, do you believe in the contention that China is the new global hegemon?

Not sure if its been said, but what do you consider made in the USA? A honda or toyota car has more parts made by american works and supports more american families then a GM / chrysler / or ford… That “sears craftsman” tool is made in Tiawan…

I really think the downward slide happened when the automakers tried to save a few bucks and stoped paying americans to build their products… Hell, GM went out of its way for the last 20 years to ruin the american automotive suppliers so they could build crap cars that dont compete just to avoid having to fire a bunch of their own guys who were paid a lot of money to do nothing…

[quote]Gregus wrote:
lixy wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I’m talking about individuals making decisions not government nannyism. Also how the fuck is buying american to keep american dollars in the USA tribalism?

How is it not?

Ok so what. It’s tribalism. Now what? IS it wrong? Why can’t i practice tribalism if it makes me and my tribe happy?

[/quote]

Because it will make neither you nor your tribe happy in the long run?

[quote]orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
orion wrote:

The ideas are still supplied by America, but not by the establishment but by some freak in a garage who sees something noone else does. As long as America has that they will probably always lead in some area.
[/quote]

That is pretty much exactly what my patent law professor said: “American’s don’t create steel, they create ideas.” Seriously, why do we want to compete with China for shit jobs? Why not instead spend our resources towards our scientists and higher end manufactured goods?

On a side note I’ve been looking for the statistics but have not found them, but last I checked despite the myth that the US is no longer involved in manufacturing, the US in truth has the highest manufacturing base in the world. Just because we don’t have people in sweatshops doesn’t mean we no longer produce goods.