BS: I have a problem. What is the solution?
Everyone: It’s not eating enough.
BS: no, that can’t be it because XYZ…
I believe in brain gains. I believe, like dt mentioned, they are movement specific. And they come when you do “new movements.” So if you have already been benching, rowing, and squatting, you’re not going to get hellacious neurological gains( improved skill) from more benching, rowing, and squatting. Some dudes even say that YOU WILL GO BACKWARDS IF YOU DO THE SAME THING MORE THAN 3 WEEKS IN A ROW. Instead of neurological gains, you’ll get clumsy and had habits will take over.
To achieve the new brain gains, you need to use new exercises. So you could try paused benches, or close grip benches. Or heavy, low reps one day, and lighter, faster reps the next day. Incline bench. Dumbbell Bench. Incline bench with dumbbells. Decline.
Try stiff leg deadlifts. Or snatch grip deadlifts. Or deads against bands. Or rack deads. Romanians, shrugs, etc.
Maybe you need new assistance lifts. EVERYONE who goes from zero Glute/ham raises to 8 Glute/ham raises increases their squats and deads. People love dips and chins.
You need to focus on you weak, or lagging areas. Use exercise variations to go after these areas. Get tied in to these muscles. Get used to lifting at new angles.
Maybe your intensity is OK in the gym, but you have to raise your game outside the gym. Get new information. Find new sources. Read more articles. Get some books. Learn about programming. Read all the Dave Tate and Louie Simmons you can. Check out Brandon Lilly and the Cube. Look how body builders and Olympic lifters and powerlifters train. Read more C. T. and see how he puts it all together. Try some new stuff. Then read up on Dan John, and get back to the basics.
If you had to go a month without barbells, could you do it? Do you think you could get bigger or stronger? Have you ever tried?
Also, what’s up with staying 150 pounds? If you’re not in some kind of competition, there is no such thing as weight class.
[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
[quote]JFG wrote:
Its not the program, it’s you.
The reason intermediate programs “don’t work” is because people are not upping their game. You want to get bigger, faster, badder? Up your intensity, food, attitude, etc.
And yeah, not getting sucked into the BS (pun intended) vortex of clusterf***.[/quote]
I don’t know why the f*** some of you keep saying to up my intensity and attitude. I alway give it my all and beyond in every program. Also, I know that after sticking to a program for a while, that strength gains no longer primarily comes from improvement in neuromuscular coordination and efficiency in the muscles, but instead switches to coming primarily from muscular hypertrophy. However, I already switched to a new program over 4 weeks ago. Therefore, I shouldve already made more strength gains primarily from comes from improvement in neuromuscular coordination and efficiency again. Furthermore, it is always possible for an experienced weightlifter to continue making strength gains while staying in his or her weight class.[/quote]
From 2012:
I am 5’9" 148 lbs. with about 12% bodyfat.
You were saying?
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
BS: I have a problem. What is the solution?
Everyone: It’s not eating enough.
BS: no, that can’t be it because XYZ…[/quote]
He’s still waiting for his fat to transform into muscle.
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These lifter rarely if ever gain muscle when this happens… I assume that adding muscle is also something you want, right?
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These lifter are genetically designed to excel in their sport (I assume you are talking about Olympic lifters and maybe powerlifters… so rarely do people follow the lower level local lifters). They are exceptions not the rule. They can continue gaining strength through enhanced neural factors, better technical efficiency or simply having a better day/better peaking procedure. At that level being able to show up in better shape the day of a competition can make a huge difference. Not to mention that we never know the full situation… maybe the year prior the athlete was bothered with some injuries while training or even minor aches and pains that reduced his training and competition performance.
-
Normally when they hit a certain level elite lifters do not significantly get stronger by staying in their class… they might lift 2-4kg more but that is like a 1-4% increase, not significant and could be due to multiple factors
-
Elite lifters TRAIN AT A HIGHER BODYWEIGHT THEN THEY COMPETE AT. In Olympic lifting most males train a full weight class over their competition weight. It is possible for a lifter to gain weight YET COMPETE AT THE SAME BODYWEIGHT. How? Let’s say that one lifter trained at 99kg and competed at 85kg last year. Well maybe he trained at 103kg this year but still made weight to compete at 85kg by dropping more water. So he might carry 10lbs more muscle but we will think that he I the same because of a similar competition weight. Ilya Ilyin did this when he competed … gaining a little extra muscle every year and when he gained so much that he couldn’t make weight anymore then he moved up a class… he will do the same now until he has to compete as a superheavy weight in 2-3 years.
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Elite lifters are at a level where they already have all the muscle they need to perform at a high level. They are basically fine tuning. And I think that competition performance is improved more through better peaking (maintaining more strength when they drop weight and being in better shape the day of the competition), better psychological mindset/more experience toward competition and better competition day strategy. You are likely not at a point where you have enough muscle to continue to improve at a fast rate.
-
There are lifters who improve performance while staying in the same class by improving body composition. If they gain 8lbs of muscle and drop 8lb of fat in a year they will stay in the same class but will be stronger. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t gain… they added a lot of muscle but simply balanced it with a drop in body fat.
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From experience you can’t compare yourself with the genetic elite (who are also likely using drugs). It’s sad to hear but some freaks are in a different category because of better motor control, naturally more efficient nervous system or just responding better to training. A client of mine who went to the Crossfit Games increases his clean from 355 to 390, his snatch from 275 to 300 and his jerk from 320 to 375 in about 6 months while staying at a similar bodyweight and body composition but the guy is a total physical exception and I would NEVER use him as an example of something a normal people can do… it’s hard to accept but some people are just born with more tools than others. And what applies to them will not apply to regular folks (and that includes me).
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Elite weightlifters spend 20-25 hours a week training, sometimes more. It’ a full time job. The amount of neural efficiency and technical mastery they can get in no way can be compared to someone who trains 6-8 hours a week. BUT the thing is that FEW people can do what they do. I don’t know many people who can tolerate that amount of work, I know I can’t (I tried). So again, we cannot compared ourselves to them and what applies to them doesn’t always apply to us.
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There are NO strong lifters that at 155lbs on 5’9" … especially not with a body fat level above 10%. Normally a 5’9" lifter is either in the 85kg or 94kg class… so between 187 and 207lbs… and that is after dropping 4-8kg to make weight. So it’s safe to say that they are in the 200-215 range in training. Now there are exceptions… Lu Xiaojun is a 77kg on 5’8", so about 170lb but he ha about 6% body fat, totally shredded and is about 180-182 in training. Most lifters who compete at around 155 at 5’4"- 5’5". So IF YOU WANT TO USE ELITE LIFTER AS EXAMPLES (which I believe you shouldn’t) you are still nowhere near where you need to be muscle mass-wise… especially if you consider that weightlifters don’t have as much upper body muscle mass (so they would likely weight more if they did a more rounded lifting program). Plus, since they are doing a lot more hours of practice than you, you need even more muscle since you will never be able to reach their level of neural efficiency.
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Why rely on exceptions to find out what works. Go with what works for most people.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
-
These lifter rarely if ever gain muscle when this happens… I assume that adding muscle is also something you want, right?
-
These lifter are genetically designed to excel in their sport (I assume you are talking about Olympic lifters and maybe powerlifters… so rarely do people follow the lower level local lifters). They are exceptions not the rule. They can continue gaining strength through enhanced neural factors, better technical efficiency or simply having a better day/better peaking procedure. At that level being able to show up in better shape the day of a competition can make a huge difference. Not to mention that we never know the full situation… maybe the year prior the athlete was bothered with some injuries while training or even minor aches and pains that reduced his training and competition performance.
-
Normally when they hit a certain level elite lifters do not significantly get stronger by staying in their class… they might lift 2-4kg more but that is like a 1-4% increase, not significant and could be due to multiple factors
-
Elite lifters TRAIN AT A HIGHER BODYWEIGHT THEN THEY COMPETE AT. In Olympic lifting most males train a full weight class over their competition weight. It is possible for a lifter to gain weight YET COMPETE AT THE SAME BODYWEIGHT. How? Let’s say that one lifter trained at 99kg and competed at 85kg last year. Well maybe he trained at 103kg this year but still made weight to compete at 85kg by dropping more water. So he might carry 10lbs more muscle but we will think that he I the same because of a similar competition weight. Ilya Ilyin did this when he competed … gaining a little extra muscle every year and when he gained so much that he couldn’t make weight anymore then he moved up a class… he will do the same now until he has to compete as a superheavy weight in 2-3 years.
-
Elite lifters are at a level where they already have all the muscle they need to perform at a high level. They are basically fine tuning. And I think that competition performance is improved more through better peaking (maintaining more strength when they drop weight and being in better shape the day of the competition), better psychological mindset/more experience toward competition and better competition day strategy. You are likely not at a point where you have enough muscle to continue to improve at a fast rate.
-
There are lifters who improve performance while staying in the same class by improving body composition. If they gain 8lbs of muscle and drop 8lb of fat in a year they will stay in the same class but will be stronger. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t gain… they added a lot of muscle but simply balanced it with a drop in body fat.
-
From experience you can’t compare yourself with the genetic elite (who are also likely using drugs). It’s sad to hear but some freaks are in a different category because of better motor control, naturally more efficient nervous system or just responding better to training. A client of mine who went to the Crossfit Games increases his clean from 355 to 390, his snatch from 275 to 300 and his jerk from 320 to 375 in about 6 months while staying at a similar bodyweight and body composition but the guy is a total physical exception and I would NEVER use him as an example of something a normal people can do… it’s hard to accept but some people are just born with more tools than others. And what applies to them will not apply to regular folks (and that includes me).
-
Elite weightlifters spend 20-25 hours a week training, sometimes more. It’ a full time job. The amount of neural efficiency and technical mastery they can get in no way can be compared to someone who trains 6-8 hours a week. BUT the thing is that FEW people can do what they do. I don’t know many people who can tolerate that amount of work, I know I can’t (I tried). So again, we cannot compared ourselves to them and what applies to them doesn’t always apply to us.
-
There are NO strong lifters that at 155lbs on 5’9" … especially not with a body fat level above 10%. Normally a 5’9" lifter is either in the 85kg or 94kg class… so between 187 and 207lbs… and that is after dropping 4-8kg to make weight. So it’s safe to say that they are in the 200-215 range in training. Now there are exceptions… Lu Xiaojun is a 77kg on 5’8", so about 170lb but he ha about 6% body fat, totally shredded and is about 180-182 in training. Most lifters who compete at around 155 at 5’4"- 5’5". So IF YOU WANT TO USE ELITE LIFTER AS EXAMPLES (which I believe you shouldn’t) you are still nowhere near where you need to be muscle mass-wise… especially if you consider that weightlifters don’t have as much upper body muscle mass (so they would likely weight more if they did a more rounded lifting program). Plus, since they are doing a lot more hours of practice than you, you need even more muscle since you will never be able to reach their level of neural efficiency.[/quote]
Great post. CT is always worth listening to.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
-
These lifter rarely if ever gain muscle when this happens… I assume that adding muscle is also something you want, right?
-
These lifter are genetically designed to excel in their sport (I assume you are talking about Olympic lifters and maybe powerlifters… so rarely do people follow the lower level local lifters). They are exceptions not the rule. They can continue gaining strength through enhanced neural factors, better technical efficiency or simply having a better day/better peaking procedure. At that level being able to show up in better shape the day of a competition can make a huge difference. Not to mention that we never know the full situation… maybe the year prior the athlete was bothered with some injuries while training or even minor aches and pains that reduced his training and competition performance.
-
Normally when they hit a certain level elite lifters do not significantly get stronger by staying in their class… they might lift 2-4kg more but that is like a 1-4% increase, not significant and could be due to multiple factors
-
Elite lifters TRAIN AT A HIGHER BODYWEIGHT THEN THEY COMPETE AT. In Olympic lifting most males train a full weight class over their competition weight. It is possible for a lifter to gain weight YET COMPETE AT THE SAME BODYWEIGHT. How? Let’s say that one lifter trained at 99kg and competed at 85kg last year. Well maybe he trained at 103kg this year but still made weight to compete at 85kg by dropping more water. So he might carry 10lbs more muscle but we will think that he I the same because of a similar competition weight. Ilya Ilyin did this when he competed … gaining a little extra muscle every year and when he gained so much that he couldn’t make weight anymore then he moved up a class… he will do the same now until he has to compete as a superheavy weight in 2-3 years.
-
Elite lifters are at a level where they already have all the muscle they need to perform at a high level. They are basically fine tuning. And I think that competition performance is improved more through better peaking (maintaining more strength when they drop weight and being in better shape the day of the competition), better psychological mindset/more experience toward competition and better competition day strategy. You are likely not at a point where you have enough muscle to continue to improve at a fast rate.
-
There are lifters who improve performance while staying in the same class by improving body composition. If they gain 8lbs of muscle and drop 8lb of fat in a year they will stay in the same class but will be stronger. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t gain… they added a lot of muscle but simply balanced it with a drop in body fat.
-
From experience you can’t compare yourself with the genetic elite (who are also likely using drugs). It’s sad to hear but some freaks are in a different category because of better motor control, naturally more efficient nervous system or just responding better to training. A client of mine who went to the Crossfit Games increases his clean from 355 to 390, his snatch from 275 to 300 and his jerk from 320 to 375 in about 6 months while staying at a similar bodyweight and body composition but the guy is a total physical exception and I would NEVER use him as an example of something a normal people can do… it’s hard to accept but some people are just born with more tools than others. And what applies to them will not apply to regular folks (and that includes me).
-
Elite weightlifters spend 20-25 hours a week training, sometimes more. It’ a full time job. The amount of neural efficiency and technical mastery they can get in no way can be compared to someone who trains 6-8 hours a week. BUT the thing is that FEW people can do what they do. I don’t know many people who can tolerate that amount of work, I know I can’t (I tried). So again, we cannot compared ourselves to them and what applies to them doesn’t always apply to us.
-
There are NO strong lifters that at 155lbs on 5’9" … especially not with a body fat level above 10%. Normally a 5’9" lifter is either in the 85kg or 94kg class… so between 187 and 207lbs… and that is after dropping 4-8kg to make weight. So it’s safe to say that they are in the 200-215 range in training. Now there are exceptions… Lu Xiaojun is a 77kg on 5’8", so about 170lb but he ha about 6% body fat, totally shredded and is about 180-182 in training. Most lifters who compete at around 155 at 5’4"- 5’5". So IF YOU WANT TO USE ELITE LIFTER AS EXAMPLES (which I believe you shouldn’t) you are still nowhere near where you need to be muscle mass-wise… especially if you consider that weightlifters don’t have as much upper body muscle mass (so they would likely weight more if they did a more rounded lifting program). Plus, since they are doing a lot more hours of practice than you, you need even more muscle since you will never be able to reach their level of neural efficiency.
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Why rely on exceptions to find out what works. Go with what works for most people.[/quote]
Well well…I never thought that CT would ever respond to any of my threads. I feel quite lucky and grateful for your lengthy yet quality response CT. I see what u mean in all of your points and alot of them did help me to clarify my understanding on the how’s and why’s of properly gaining strength after maximizing all of your beginner gains. However, with all due respect, u misunderstand me with regard to comparing myself with the elites. First off, I wasn’t trying to compare myself necessarily with elite weight trainers. When I mentioned highly experienced weightlifters I meant the folks who are strong, maybe a somewhat more muscular than me, and have been lifting for several years but would be considered to be very likely if not definitely “ordinary” just as you had claimed yourself to be (though u maybe being modest about your true genetic potential, idk). Yes, there is no denying that some have better genetics for olympic weight training, powerlifting, bodybuilding, strongmen competitions, etc. However, I can’t believe that I have already reached my maximum genetic potential to develop my strength by primarily furthering my development in neuromuscular efficiency, inter- and intra-muscular coordination. After all, there are all of these weight training exercises and programs out there for intermediate lifters like myself that don’t mention that more eating is required if u are gonna try any of those methods, but are supposed to help guys like us continue making significant gains over time. Second, I have no intention of ever becoming an elite weight trainee, regardless of whether my goals are in bodybuilding, olympic weight training, powerlifter, strongmen events, etc. In fact, I don’t desire to come to any elite lifter that has ever exist throughout history including today. My ultimate goals in life are:
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To be able to attain a little over twice the amount of muscle mass I have gained overall ever since I seriously started weight training.
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Bench press a little over 350 lbs.
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Deadlift about 600 lbs. (maybe a little more than that)
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Squat 500 lbs., more or less
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OH press 185 lbs. more or less
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Barbell row 315 lbs. or more.
I accomplished all of your ultimate goals at your height before I turned 28 without any chemical assistance. I find it odd you’re unwilling to listen to my advice on the matter.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I accomplished all of your ultimate goals at your height before I turned 28 without any chemical assistance. I find it odd you’re unwilling to listen to my advice on the matter.[/quote]
Don’t take it personal. This is a dude who gets advice from Thibs only to turn around and explain why it’s inaccurate.
BS - if, for some odd reason, you insist on maintaining the same bodyweight, you may be able to add 10-20 pounds to each of your main lifts - over the next year - if you’re lucky. If that’s what you want, go for it. Just stop asking people why your program does not produce noticeable results after four weeks.
Powerlifters in the lighter weight classes are still quite muscular.
Here’s a picture of John Haack, a 181lb lifter.
Taylor Atwood, 165lb lifter.
https://instagram.com/p/6a3ishL8jE/?taken-by=t_atwood
Keith Mchoney, 148lb lifter.
https://instagram.com/p/2zzgsdO7ow/?taken-by=keithmchoneypowerlifter
These guys all have significant amounts of muscle, and are very strong lifters.
Also, I guarantee they all do way more volume than what Madcow has. Way more.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I accomplished all of your ultimate goals at your height before I turned 28 without any chemical assistance. I find it odd you’re unwilling to listen to my advice on the matter.[/quote]
Don’t take it personal. This is a dude who gets advice from Thibs only to turn around and explain why it’s inaccurate.
BS - if, for some odd reason, you insist on maintaining the same bodyweight, you may be able to add 10-20 pounds to each of your main lifts - over the next year - if you’re lucky. If that’s what you want, go for it. Just stop asking people why your program does not produce noticeable results after four weeks.[/quote]
Oh yeah, nothing personal at all, more just something to have a laugh about. I could literally give him step by step instructions on this.
I mean, here is a photo of me at 155lbs at 5’9. Literally been there, done that, haha. Fun fact: I still own that t-shirt. I should retake the photo sometime to compare.
I second the pic idea (bonus points for the same expression)
[quote]tsantos wrote:
I second the pic idea (bonus points for the same expression)[/quote]
x3
OP will take no notice at all but it might be a good laugh for the rest of us.
<-------- Thibs fanboy for life
[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
I don’t know what to do and I can’t keep wasting anymore time.
Please help me as soon as you can. Thanks!
[/quote]
This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.
You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
This is a dude who gets advice from Thibs only to turn around and explain why it’s inaccurate.
[/quote]
Again, for the benefit of others:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
4. Elite lifters TRAIN AT A HIGHER BODYWEIGHT THEN THEY COMPETE AT. In Olympic lifting most males train a full weight class over their competition weight. It is possible for a lifter to gain weight YET COMPETE AT THE SAME BODYWEIGHT. How? Let’s say that one lifter trained at 99kg and competed at 85kg last year. Well maybe he trained at 103kg this year but still made weight to compete at 85kg by dropping more water. So he might carry 10lbs more muscle but we will think that he I the same because of a similar competition weight. Ilya Ilyin did this when he competed … gaining a little extra muscle every year and when he gained so much that he couldn’t make weight anymore then he moved up a class… he will do the same now until he has to compete as a superheavy weight in 2-3 years.
-
Elite lifters are at a level where they already have all the muscle they need to perform at a high level. They are basically fine tuning. And I think that competition performance is improved more through better peaking (maintaining more strength when they drop weight and being in better shape the day of the competition), better psychological mindset/more experience toward competition and better competition day strategy. You are likely not at a point where you have enough muscle to continue to improve at a fast rate.
-
There are lifters who improve performance while staying in the same class by improving body composition. If they gain 8lbs of muscle and drop 8lb of fat in a year they will stay in the same class but will be stronger. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t gain… they added a lot of muscle but simply balanced it with a drop in body fat. [/quote]
[quote]tsantos wrote:This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.
You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.[/quote]
I have seen this often, and mostly from people who struggle to gain mass.
Since they can’t seen able to gain muscle mass (most of the time it is due to both underfeeding the proper nutrients and not doing enough work in the gym) then they turn to a surrogate/replacement goal to justify their efforts in the gym. For some it might be doing crazy stuff that nobody does or becoming bodyweight exercises master for others it is to gain strength.
Not to mention that someone who doesn’t have muscle… but has abs will do everything to keep his abs because that’s the only thing he has that makes him look like someone who trains. They don’t accept the advice to eat more for fear of losing their abs in the process. Now I’m against the mentality of getting fat just to get stronger or bigger, but you do have to accept not being as lean when you absolutely need to add muscle to get stronger.
When they fail to get stronger they refuse to accept that they stopped gaining strength simply because they need to get more muscular BECAUSE THEIR INABILITY TO ADD MUSCLE MASS is what made them focus on strength rather than on adding muscle in the first place.
This is something I often see from the “relative strength” adepts (normally those you pray to Pavel every morning). These people actually take pride in getting stronger without getting bigger and often make fun of those who are muscular.
Neural efficiency is important, yes. But at one point you need to add more muscle to get stronger. You don’t need to be bodybuilding-big but if you want to reach your goals you will need to add a significant amount of muscle mass in the process. I mean you want to basically double what you lift in the squat and row, lift about 150lbs more in the deadlift and bench press… you wont reach those without adding at least 15-20lbs of solid muscle. The overhead press (+65lbs) is a bit more realistic since 185lbs really isn’t that much weight. But you would likely need to add 10lbs of muscle to do that.
Let’s face it… the raw WORLD RECORD in the squat at 148lbs (which is closer to your weight than the 165lb class…and 148lbs lifters train at roughly 160lbs before making weight) is 555lbs. So you basically want to add 200lbs to your squat and reach 90% of the all-time world record without gaining muscle?
And the deadlift world record is 697. Again you want to add 150lbs to your deadlift and reach 86% of the all-time world record (maybe more since you said that you want to reach more than 600) without gaining muscle.
I hate to be that guy as I try to always encourage people and be positive, but it is absolutely impossible to reach these goals without adding a good amount of muscle. And it’s not like you are a beginner either… someone pointed to a post you made in 2012… 3-4 years ago. So you are way past beginner gains.
Muscles move weight. The nervous system only allows you to make the best use of the muscles you have.
One really good line up was the one that I heard when a older weightlifter gave advice to a rookie in our gym: “You should not separate your training in strength-only or mass- only for the first years in the gym. In the end you’ll be needing both to get gains in the other”.
BS, I suspect you’re just probably don’t have a big appetite and not really a lover of food. Don’t take any of this the wrong way but…did you ever consider that this pursuit just isn’t for you? There’s nothing wrong with that. Why not find a pursuit that you’re probably better suited for and can be good at? Or just continue to train for the sake of it and for “general health”. Nothing wrong with that either.
You’ve been given great advice. You’ve had the one and only CT respond to your thread, which is not in his dedicated forum, but yet you reject everything that everyone has been saying to you. There’s obviously something in the advice that simply does not resonate with you and you simply can’t bring yourself to do it. If that’s the case, then find another passion.
You guys need to understand that he has a very unique interpretation of the world around him.