Madcow Not Working

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
I don’t know what to do and I can’t keep wasting anymore time.

Please help me as soon as you can. Thanks!
[/quote]

This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.

You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

This is a dude who gets advice from Thibs only to turn around and explain why it’s inaccurate.
[/quote]
Again, for the benefit of others:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
4. Elite lifters TRAIN AT A HIGHER BODYWEIGHT THEN THEY COMPETE AT. In Olympic lifting most males train a full weight class over their competition weight. It is possible for a lifter to gain weight YET COMPETE AT THE SAME BODYWEIGHT. How? Let’s say that one lifter trained at 99kg and competed at 85kg last year. Well maybe he trained at 103kg this year but still made weight to compete at 85kg by dropping more water. So he might carry 10lbs more muscle but we will think that he I the same because of a similar competition weight. Ilya Ilyin did this when he competed … gaining a little extra muscle every year and when he gained so much that he couldn’t make weight anymore then he moved up a class… he will do the same now until he has to compete as a superheavy weight in 2-3 years.

  1. Elite lifters are at a level where they already have all the muscle they need to perform at a high level. They are basically fine tuning. And I think that competition performance is improved more through better peaking (maintaining more strength when they drop weight and being in better shape the day of the competition), better psychological mindset/more experience toward competition and better competition day strategy. You are likely not at a point where you have enough muscle to continue to improve at a fast rate.

  2. There are lifters who improve performance while staying in the same class by improving body composition. If they gain 8lbs of muscle and drop 8lb of fat in a year they will stay in the same class but will be stronger. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t gain… they added a lot of muscle but simply balanced it with a drop in body fat. [/quote]

[quote]tsantos wrote:This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.

You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.[/quote]

I have seen this often, and mostly from people who struggle to gain mass.

Since they can’t seen able to gain muscle mass (most of the time it is due to both underfeeding the proper nutrients and not doing enough work in the gym) then they turn to a surrogate/replacement goal to justify their efforts in the gym. For some it might be doing crazy stuff that nobody does or becoming bodyweight exercises master for others it is to gain strength.

Not to mention that someone who doesn’t have muscle… but has abs will do everything to keep his abs because that’s the only thing he has that makes him look like someone who trains. They don’t accept the advice to eat more for fear of losing their abs in the process. Now I’m against the mentality of getting fat just to get stronger or bigger, but you do have to accept not being as lean when you absolutely need to add muscle to get stronger.

When they fail to get stronger they refuse to accept that they stopped gaining strength simply because they need to get more muscular BECAUSE THEIR INABILITY TO ADD MUSCLE MASS is what made them focus on strength rather than on adding muscle in the first place.

This is something I often see from the “relative strength” adepts (normally those you pray to Pavel every morning). These people actually take pride in getting stronger without getting bigger and often make fun of those who are muscular.

Neural efficiency is important, yes. But at one point you need to add more muscle to get stronger. You don’t need to be bodybuilding-big but if you want to reach your goals you will need to add a significant amount of muscle mass in the process. I mean you want to basically double what you lift in the squat and row, lift about 150lbs more in the deadlift and bench press… you wont reach those without adding at least 15-20lbs of solid muscle. The overhead press (+65lbs) is a bit more realistic since 185lbs really isn’t that much weight. But you would likely need to add 10lbs of muscle to do that.

Let’s face it… the raw WORLD RECORD in the squat at 148lbs (which is closer to your weight than the 165lb class…and 148lbs lifters train at roughly 160lbs before making weight) is 555lbs. So you basically want to add 200lbs to your squat and reach 90% of the all-time world record without gaining muscle?

And the deadlift world record is 697. Again you want to add 150lbs to your deadlift and reach 86% of the all-time world record (maybe more since you said that you want to reach more than 600) without gaining muscle.

I hate to be that guy as I try to always encourage people and be positive, but it is absolutely impossible to reach these goals without adding a good amount of muscle. And it’s not like you are a beginner either… someone pointed to a post you made in 2012… 3-4 years ago. So you are way past beginner gains.

Muscles move weight. The nervous system only allows you to make the best use of the muscles you have.

One really good line up was the one that I heard when a older weightlifter gave advice to a rookie in our gym: “You should not separate your training in strength-only or mass- only for the first years in the gym. In the end you’ll be needing both to get gains in the other”.

BS, I suspect you’re just probably don’t have a big appetite and not really a lover of food. Don’t take any of this the wrong way but…did you ever consider that this pursuit just isn’t for you? There’s nothing wrong with that. Why not find a pursuit that you’re probably better suited for and can be good at? Or just continue to train for the sake of it and for “general health”. Nothing wrong with that either.

You’ve been given great advice. You’ve had the one and only CT respond to your thread, which is not in his dedicated forum, but yet you reject everything that everyone has been saying to you. There’s obviously something in the advice that simply does not resonate with you and you simply can’t bring yourself to do it. If that’s the case, then find another passion.

You guys need to understand that he has a very unique interpretation of the world around him.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_beginner/how_much_fat_surplus_gets_used_for_every_pound_of_muscle_u_build?id=6317208&pageNo=0

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I feel like I observe significantly greater rates of failure than success with pre-planned intermediate programs like Madcow and the Texas Method.

But refusing to gain weight at 5’9 and 155lbs won’t help most programs.[/quote]

Yeah I agree. I notice especially that people’s upper body strength significantly lags. You’ll see someone who can squat 315 but cant bench 225 or cant press 155. Ive found that high rep squats and deadlifts work way better than sets of 5 or less for strength especially.

Someone has been spending too much time training like a sheep and not enough time conjugating with lions.

[quote]Evolv wrote:
Just to interject here for a moment…

A) You calculated the wrong percentages for the first 4 weeks
or
b) You are not as strong as you think you are and you should reevaluate your true strength level.

So in other words, the first 4 weeks of Madcow should be cake-- it is essentially a warm-up to start setting “PRs” or breaking new ground after that period.
[/quote]

This.

[quote]Evolv wrote:
Just to interject here for a moment…

Regarding the program Madcow specifically. You say you have not made any gains using Madcow in “at least” the first 4 weeks of the program. If you do Madcow correctly, then the first 4 weeks are working up to your rep maximum that you enter into the percentages of the program… so either:

A) You calculated the wrong percentages for the first 4 weeks
or
b) You are not as strong as you think you are and you should reevaluate your true strength level.

So in other words, the first 4 weeks of Madcow should be cake-- it is essentially a warm-up to start setting “PRs” or breaking new ground after that period.
[/quote]

This is a problem I see with people who embark on a periodized (using percentages) program. They overestimate the weight they should start with.

They do so for 4 possible reasons:

  1. They use PRs (personal records) instead of PBs (personal best) to calculate their weights. The PR is your all-time best, something you hit once and rarely or never repeated again. Keep in mind that this PR might have been established on a magical day where everything went perfect but does not represent your normal capacities. A PB is the most weight you can lift any week if you have to, something that you will never miss under normal circumstances. THIS is the weight you should be using, not your PR.

  2. They use “bad form” best lifts to calculate their weights… could be a squat that is just a tad higher than normal (even 1-2 inches make a big difference), a bench press done while lifting your butt off the bench, a military press slightly cheated with the legs, etc. This can add 10-20lb to your lift (maybe more)… not huge but it can completely screw up the progression scheme.

  3. They use theoretical maxes that are overestimated… for example they bench 225, hard but they think to themselves “I could probably do 10-15lbs more if I really got fired up”. So they use a weight that is once again too high.

  4. They pick their weights based on where they want to end up instead of where they are at. This is even more frequent when they are using a program that has a excel template. For example at the top of their excel spreadsheet their enter 300lbs as they max squat. At the end of the excel spreadsheet it plans the program so that you will end up at 330lbs; but you REALLY want to hit 350. So instead of entering 300 (which is your max) you enter 320lbs (o now the spreadsheet is set to end at 350). Obviously this once again make each week too hard. You might be able to handle the first 2-3 weeks (which are normally easy) but you will crash very fast.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]tsantos wrote:This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.

You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.[/quote]

I have seen this often, and mostly from people who struggle to gain mass.

Since they can’t seen able to gain muscle mass (most of the time it is due to both underfeeding the proper nutrients and not doing enough work in the gym) then they turn to a surrogate/replacement goal to justify their efforts in the gym. For some it might be doing crazy stuff that nobody does or becoming bodyweight exercises master for others it is to gain strength.

Not to mention that someone who doesn’t have muscle… but has abs will do everything to keep his abs because that’s the only thing he has that makes him look like someone who trains. They don’t accept the advice to eat more for fear of losing their abs in the process. Now I’m against the mentality of getting fat just to get stronger or bigger, but you do have to accept not being as lean when you absolutely need to add muscle to get stronger.

When they fail to get stronger they refuse to accept that they stopped gaining strength simply because they need to get more muscular BECAUSE THEIR INABILITY TO ADD MUSCLE MASS is what made them focus on strength rather than on adding muscle in the first place.

This is something I often see from the “relative strength” adepts (normally those you pray to Pavel every morning). These people actually take pride in getting stronger without getting bigger and often make fun of those who are muscular.

Neural efficiency is important, yes. But at one point you need to add more muscle to get stronger. You don’t need to be bodybuilding-big but if you want to reach your goals you will need to add a significant amount of muscle mass in the process. I mean you want to basically double what you lift in the squat and row, lift about 150lbs more in the deadlift and bench press… you wont reach those without adding at least 15-20lbs of solid muscle. The overhead press (+65lbs) is a bit more realistic since 185lbs really isn’t that much weight. But you would likely need to add 10lbs of muscle to do that.

Let’s face it… the raw WORLD RECORD in the squat at 148lbs (which is closer to your weight than the 165lb class…and 148lbs lifters train at roughly 160lbs before making weight) is 555lbs. So you basically want to add 200lbs to your squat and reach 90% of the all-time world record without gaining muscle?

And the deadlift world record is 697. Again you want to add 150lbs to your deadlift and reach 86% of the all-time world record (maybe more since you said that you want to reach more than 600) without gaining muscle.

I hate to be that guy as I try to always encourage people and be positive, but it is absolutely impossible to reach these goals without adding a good amount of muscle. And it’s not like you are a beginner either… someone pointed to a post you made in 2012… 3-4 years ago. So you are way past beginner gains.

Muscles move weight. The nervous system only allows you to make the best use of the muscles you have.[/quote]

So, assuming that u have made all of the gains that could’ve ever made from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength or Stronglifts, then u can’t just switch to an intermediate program to continue making gains in strength?

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]tsantos wrote:This is what I don’t understand. By your own admission you’re stuck and you want help but when you are offered help you use all the reasons you accept are wrong to rebut the offered help.

You want permission to do the stuff you know won’t work. Go ahead and do it, you don’t need our validation.[/quote]

I have seen this often, and mostly from people who struggle to gain mass.

Since they can’t seen able to gain muscle mass (most of the time it is due to both underfeeding the proper nutrients and not doing enough work in the gym) then they turn to a surrogate/replacement goal to justify their efforts in the gym. For some it might be doing crazy stuff that nobody does or becoming bodyweight exercises master for others it is to gain strength.

Not to mention that someone who doesn’t have muscle… but has abs will do everything to keep his abs because that’s the only thing he has that makes him look like someone who trains. They don’t accept the advice to eat more for fear of losing their abs in the process. Now I’m against the mentality of getting fat just to get stronger or bigger, but you do have to accept not being as lean when you absolutely need to add muscle to get stronger.

When they fail to get stronger they refuse to accept that they stopped gaining strength simply because they need to get more muscular BECAUSE THEIR INABILITY TO ADD MUSCLE MASS is what made them focus on strength rather than on adding muscle in the first place.

This is something I often see from the “relative strength” adepts (normally those you pray to Pavel every morning). These people actually take pride in getting stronger without getting bigger and often make fun of those who are muscular.

Neural efficiency is important, yes. But at one point you need to add more muscle to get stronger. You don’t need to be bodybuilding-big but if you want to reach your goals you will need to add a significant amount of muscle mass in the process. I mean you want to basically double what you lift in the squat and row, lift about 150lbs more in the deadlift and bench press… you wont reach those without adding at least 15-20lbs of solid muscle. The overhead press (+65lbs) is a bit more realistic since 185lbs really isn’t that much weight. But you would likely need to add 10lbs of muscle to do that.

Let’s face it… the raw WORLD RECORD in the squat at 148lbs (which is closer to your weight than the 165lb class…and 148lbs lifters train at roughly 160lbs before making weight) is 555lbs. So you basically want to add 200lbs to your squat and reach 90% of the all-time world record without gaining muscle?

And the deadlift world record is 697. Again you want to add 150lbs to your deadlift and reach 86% of the all-time world record (maybe more since you said that you want to reach more than 600) without gaining muscle.

I hate to be that guy as I try to always encourage people and be positive, but it is absolutely impossible to reach these goals without adding a good amount of muscle. And it’s not like you are a beginner either… someone pointed to a post you made in 2012… 3-4 years ago. So you are way past beginner gains.

Muscles move weight. The nervous system only allows you to make the best use of the muscles you have.[/quote]

So, assuming that u have made all of the gains that could’ve ever made from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength or Stronglifts, then u can’t just switch to an intermediate program to continue making gains in strength?[/quote]

eh, where did he say that?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

  1. They use PRs (personal records) instead of PBs (personal best) to calculate their weights. The PR is your all-time best, something you hit once and rarely or never repeated again. Keep in mind that this PR might have been established on a magical day where everything went perfect but does not represent your normal capacities. A PB is the most weight you can lift any week if you have to, something that you will never miss under normal circumstances. THIS is the weight you should be using, not your PR.[/quote]

This is so true. I remember training on hardly any sleep and missing my preworkout meal. Everything was sluggish, I felt my form breaking down on 70% of my 1RM.

Get a phone call from my mother which I decided was a good excuse to end the session. By the end, I’m so angry (I have one of those mothers) I just say frig it and do another set. It flies up. Another at my 1RM it flies and I added a full 45lbs on top of that and still kinda easy.

I add 5lbs but now I’m feeling chuffed so my mood eases and it is bolted to the floor haha

OP reminds me of myself when I began to complain on this forum this summer. I was looking for a better program to run. I couldnt gain muscle mass so I focused on gaining strength. How, I still dont know.

what can I say, you got all the best answers possible in here. I’m just adding what made me break through a 1 year long+ plateau and gain 7 lean pounds in 4 months. This along with PRs on squat and deadlift when I last tested my maxes in September, and rep PRs (without even trying) every other week on bench for the last 2 months.

  • you need to understand that madcow sucks volume wise. I don’t know if you would respond better to more frequency (think CT modified bulgarian) or more volume per session but doing roughly the same number of sets and reps as a beginner could be very deceiving. It was for me, looks like it is for you

  • you need to up the game like someone else told you. It means training longer, harder. I spent 2 hours a day for a few weeks on Sheiko37, and I was trying to make my rest periods as short as possible. Going up to one set of 5 heavy-ish reps aint going to change shit. Forget the 45-60 minutes short and heavy sessions. I believe this is the biggest lie for an intermediate lifter. Big guys spend 3 hours at the gym if needed, small guys will barely exceed 1 hour and will be afraid of some cortisol/testosterone ratio plummeting their gainz. You’ll need to decide if you wanna train more like a big strong guy, or like a small weak guy

  • you need bodybuilding assistance work. Do it, period. ‘Doing focused and hard bodybuilding assistance has made me bigger and weaker’ said no one, ever.

  • some people will achieve your goals with 5x5 SL because they eat like pigs. As CT said, you’re likely to miss proper nutrients if you dont eat enough. I dont like carbs at all besides berries every other week. Pre workout stimulation followed by huge quantities of meat/eggs for dinner do the trick very well. And they freak my vegan roommate out which is gold hahah. Check the Gironda old school diet.

  • you got all the explanations for your strength/mass ratio. You’ll have to add at least 5lb of lean body mass a year and a good 30lb on every lift if we remain optimistic. If you wanna masturbate on your wilks your weight will have to be changed with a proper water manipulation - just like competitors do.

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:

So, assuming that u have made all of the gains that could’ve ever made from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength or Stronglifts, then u can’t just switch to an intermediate program to continue making gains in strength?[/quote]

How do you get that from the post. I simply mean that at one point there is a limit to the amount of strength you can gain without adding on muscle.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:

So, assuming that u have made all of the gains that could’ve ever made from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength or Stronglifts, then u can’t just switch to an intermediate program to continue making gains in strength?[/quote]

How do you get that from the post. I simply mean that at one point there is a limit to the amount of strength you can gain without adding on muscle. [/quote]

Well, to clarify to what I am trying to get at, I was inferring from what you said in your last response to me and how it applied to my original post on why Madcow hasn’t been working for me. I understand that gaining significant amount of muscle mass is crucial for continuing to make significant gains in overall strength. Therefore, after u’ve completed making all of your beginner’s gains you have to eat alot more than u usually do and work more on building muscular hypetrophy. So, were u suggesting in your first and second posts u made to me that even if u do to switching over from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength to an intermediate program such as Madcow’s, u still have to gain more muscle mass and eat more because u are no longer a beginner?

Why were you avoiding gaining muscle in the first place?

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:
were u suggesting in your first and second posts u made to me that even if u do to switching over from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength to an intermediate program such as Madcow’s, u still have to gain more muscle mass and eat more because u are no longer a beginner?[/quote]

These “beginner”, “intermediate”, “advanced” programs are all about your ability to recover. The underlying function of increasing muscle mass and skill holds true regardless of the stage, you just program it differently as you become more competent because 500lbs for 5 is an entirely different ball game to 135lbs for 5.

It really doesn’t need to be this complicated though.

A bigger muscle on you = a potentially stronger muscle on you this will always hold true.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Why were you avoiding gaining muscle in the first place?[/quote]

exactly what I was thinking

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Deus1000 wrote:

So, assuming that u have made all of the gains that could’ve ever made from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength or Stronglifts, then u can’t just switch to an intermediate program to continue making gains in strength?[/quote]

How do you get that from the post. I simply mean that at one point there is a limit to the amount of strength you can gain without adding on muscle. [/quote]

Well, to clarify to what I am trying to get at, I was inferring from what you said in your last response to me and how it applied to my original post on why Madcow hasn’t been working for me. I understand that gaining significant amount of muscle mass is crucial for continuing to make significant gains in overall strength. Therefore, after u’ve completed making all of your beginner’s gains you have to eat alot more than u usually do and work more on building muscular hypetrophy. So, were u suggesting in your first and second posts u made to me that even if u do to switching over from a beginner’s program such as Starting Strength to an intermediate program such as Madcow’s, u still have to gain more muscle mass and eat more because u are no longer a beginner?[/quote]

Unless you are competing in a sport with weight classes. If your goal is to get as strong as possible you should always strive to increase your muscle mass. And that means taking the required strategies to gain muscle. I’m not necessarily fond of pure “bulking” where you add a lot of fat just in hope of adding more muscle, but if you are not increasing your muscle mass you WILL need to give your body more nutrients and do more training volume.