T Nation

M with more power

Hi guys, Lately I’ve been interested in potent natural estrogen blockers. Arimidex is too expensive, too powerful and may have side effects if used long term. On the other hand, M is nice but not as powerful as arimidex. So I made my little stack of most potent natural estrogen spuressors: 1) M 2)Chrysin - This naturally occurring compound is a potent inhibitor of aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to the particular estrogen- estradiol (believed to be “bad” estrogen). It also has a direct effect on the neuro-receptors of the brain creating a calming effect. 3) Bioperine to help with absorbtion of chrysin and M 4) Di-indolylmethane(DIM) DIM enhances the liver’s ability to metabolize estrogen. DIM has been shown to protect and improve prostate function, reduce conversion of testosterone to DHT, enhance insulin sensitivity and increase abdominal fat loss. 5) Nettle extract. This popular herb has been shown to increase bioavailable (free) testosterone levels by freeing it from SHBG testosterone-binding protein in the blood). In addition it inhibits aromatase and protects the prostate by blocking the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

Those five give best bang for the buck. They are all otc , can be bought in many health stores or online. Combined I expeted a synergy and that was the case. I started taking this stack about three weeks ago. The first effects I noticed after one week: my sex drive went way up. Now after about three weeks I suddenly noticed that my body composition has changed. I look much leaner and harder, the stubborn fat on lower abs that I had troubles to diet off finally is going away. I love the way I look and feel now.

I remember reading an archived article on the forums search engine that mentioned chrysin may cause cancer. Might want to look into it.

What are the long term side effects of Arimidex?

Dosages and brands please.

There are articles that mention chrysin and cancer but in all of them chrysin is shown to have cancer preventing potential. For exmaple
In a study published in the Journal of Steroid Biochemical Molecular Biology (1993;Vol 46, No 3), chrysin and 10
other flavonoids were compared to an
aromatase-inhibiting drug
(aminoglutethimide). The study tested
the aromatase-inhibiting effects of
these natural flavonoids (such as
genistein, rutin, tea catechins, etc.) in
human fat cell cultures. Chrysin was
the most potent aromatase-inhibitor,
and was shown to be similar in potency
and effectiveness to the aromatase-inhibiting drug. The scientists conducting the study concluded by stating that the aromatase-inhibiting effects of certain
flavonoids may contribute to the cancer preventive effects of plant-based diets.

Arimidex is a very powerful estrogen inhibitor, it can actually reduce estrogen levels too much, so I wouldn't use it nonstop for a long time. I wouldonly use it during and aftersteroid cycles, or on fast fat type of diet. By the way, forgot to say that I don't take DIM in pure fom, but rather its precursor I3C (Indole-3-carbinol ).

DIM is a very poor and possibly counter productive anti-estrogen.
One study showed it increased
aromatase 2 fold.

Again, dosages and brand names please.

Hey Nick,I’m also interested in blocking E
I think hormonal balance is more important than just raising T levels at least in my case,other than Mag I usually don’t respond very well to pro hormones.Im familiar with a couple of these compounds but not DIM & bioperene any hints on where you found them.

to .001% : as I said I take DIM precursor Indole-3-carbinol, it metabolises to DIM in the body. Unlike pure dim it is backed up by human studies and it does modulate estrogen receptor and has tremendous potential in prevention of cancer, particularly estrogen-enhanced cancer.
For example read this articles:

Meng Q, et al. 2000. Indole-3-carbinol is a
negative regulator of estrogen receptor-
signaling in human tumor cells. J Nutr

Cover CM, et al. 1998. Indole-3-carbinol
inhibits the expression of cyclin-dependent
kinase-6 and induces a G1 cell cycle arrest of
human breast cancer cells independent of
estrogen receptor signaling. J Biol Chem

Jellinck PH, et al. 1993. Ah receptor
binding properties of indole carbinols and
induction of hepatic estradiol hydroxylation.
Biochem Pharmacol 45:1129-36.

If you wish I can send you more abstracts and references.

To monkeymind: chrysin has been popular for a while now and is sold by many companies. However not too many are aware about the poor absorption of chrysin in the bloodstream.

If taken by itself (but not transdermaly) it
does not produce the testosterone enhancing effects users expect.
But in a study published in Biochemical
Pharmacology (1999, Vol.58), the specific mechanisms of chrysin’s absorption impairment were identified, which infers that the addition of a pepper extract (piperine) significantly enhances the bioavailability of chrysin. Pilot studies have found that when chrysin is combined with piperine, reductions in serum estrogen (estradiol) and increases in total and free testosterone result in 30 days.
Interestingly bioperine also enhances bioavailability of others drugs as well (for exmaple M).

As for the brands, I buy all these products at iherb, they have great prices. For example nettle from natures way is only $4 and it lasts a month. The only I3C I like is that made by lef, can be found at iherb too. If you are short on money, just buy nettle, bioperine and chrysin as I3C is a little more expensive.

This is all excellent information you have provided. I am interested in the dosages that you are taking. In particular, how many mg of chrysin and I3C. Also, Pinnacle makes a chrysin formula that contains 25mg of I3C. I’m wondering if that would be enough I3C or would it be better to get the two separate. Again, thanks for sharing this information…

Nick, what would be your concern with using low-dose Arimidex on a continual basis? I’ve been using .5mg every other day for over a year. At that dosage the expense isn’t too bad and it manages E better than anything else. As long as you get your blood checked regularly to make sure that your E levels don’t get too low, it seems like the most effective way to go. By the way, I got my doctor to write a script for Arimidex because my E levels were borderline high.

All of the above supple,ments are in a tablet made by Earthlink, sold at GNC named Anit Estro. Taken 2x per day for 30 days, then 1x after that. I have been using it for 2 weeks now, along with Quercitin, and have so far had no bloat from a Deca/Test cycle. I have Arimidex on hand, but so far, not needed it.

Thankyou for the kind words. I know about the product from Pinnacle you mentioned. It is overpriced in my opinion. It only has 250 mg of chrysin, 50 tabs cost $26.0 I buy Chrysin
Jarrow formula, 500 mg 30caps for $15 - much cheaper. Also pinnacle has only 25 mg of I3C whereas lef product has 200 mg per capsule.
Normally I take 500 mg of chrysin daily. 1g would be better, but then it would be too expensive for me. Actually if taken nonstop in the long run 500 mg is as good as 1 g.

The main reasons I chose natural supplements is that the plant extracts have ancillary
health benefits. Chrysin, for example, is
a potent antioxidant that possesses
vitamin-like effects in the body. It has
been shown to induce an anti-inflammatory effect, possibly through inhibition of the enzymes 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase
inflammation pathways. It also has a calming effect. Biotest’s M has some powerful antioxidants and one of the components is actually a reservatrol - the substance that is attributed to the benefits from red wine consumption. Nettle, besides being aromatise inhibitor, also is a reach source of chlorophyll in whole herb form. Another reason is that I don’t need to get a prescription for those supplements and don’t need to take blood tests regularly. If you are taking the tests (monitoring blood is critical when taking this drug long term) and have a script, arimidex is good too. I take it only during and post steroid cycles.
To BAMBAM: I never heard about anti estro. I chosed all these products after doing much research and reading abstracts on medline. Check the dosage in anti estro, it may have all the necessary components but in low concentrations, just like the pinnacle product StarDog refered to above.

One of the important things to look for in a chrysin product is the coloring according to a prior article on the forum. I believe it mentioned that high quality chrysin should be yellowish in color. If not, then it’s not of high quality.

.001%, could you tell me where I can find a copy of the study you mentioned? Nick, from everything I’ve heard DIM is far superior to I3C. For multiple reasons. Here’s a site I found. They’re not selling anything but the 2.99 book that they give for free on the site, so no alterior motive. They give plenty of research to back up there claims. I would like to hear your responses. http://www.dimfaq.com/ site/cruchoice.htm

Well, Michael A. Zeligs is the guy who developed and sells DIM so be wary of all his articles about dim benefits. What I like about I3C is that it is a naturally occuring substance and converts to dim naturally in the stomach. Also I3C is the parent molecule of not only DIM, but dozens of other phytochemicals that form in the gut. In addition to DIM, I3C also creates ICZ, NI3C and IAN. Although these others haven’t been studied very well, there is some evidence that they may each have their own unique actions against cancer. For example, ICZ blocks the dioxin receptor better than DIM or I3C. This mechanism could potentially forestall some types of chemically-induced cancers. And while IAN doesn’t seem to do much for breast cancer, it looks promising for stomach cancer.
Also read this articles about pure DIM’s effects on estrogen receptors:
Jellinck PH, et al. 1994. Distinct forms of
hepatic androgen 6 beta-hydroxylase induced
in the rat by indole-3-carbinol and pregnenolone carbonitrile. J Steroid Biochem
Mol Biol 51:219-25.

Sanderson JT, et al. 2001.
2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and
diindolylmethanes differentially induce
cytochrome p450 1A1, 1B1, and a19 in H295R
human adrenocortical carcinoma cells. Toxicol
Sci 61:40-48.

Actually, research indicate that there is a
difference between the way I3C acts versus the way its individual products act. See Jellinck PH, et al. 1994. Distinct forms of hepatic androgen 6 beta-hydroxylase induced n the rat by indole-3-carbinol and pregnenolone carbonitrile. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 51:219-25.
There is a study that shows that in its pure form dim may actually activate the estrogen receptor in human breast cancer cells by Riby JE, et al. 2000. Ligand-independent
activation of estrogen receptor function by
3,3’-diindolylmethane in human breast cancer
cells. Biochem Pharm 60:167-77.
Also, there is a prevailing view that the effects of I3C are due to the combination of its condensation products together, not one single product. I think dim may enhance the effects of I3C after it is metabolised in the stomach. The bottom line is that I3C is a natural product whereas dim is a break-down product of I3C with an artificial chemical added to make it bioavalable. There is plenty of research backing up I3C so why risk it taking pure dim? When people talk about I3C they often say that all its benefits are due to convertion to DIM, thats why I mentioned only dim in my original post, but I think I3C is much more than just that. Its components clearly have cancer fighting properties and work synergistically.

Checked the contents-100mgChrysin, 2.5mg Bioperine,125mg Pygeum,25mgs Isaflavones, 100mcg Selenium and 250mg Seville Orange bioflavanoids(naringenin,hesperidin,eriocitrin)
per tablet. I am going to keep with the Arimidex now that I have it. Just thought I would give you the content.

I haven’t looked at the website yet but I have a personal bias for several good reasons.
First off, Nick posted the study I was referring to Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M. Related Articles
2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.
Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8.
PMID: 11294972 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE].
Anyway, several years back i had my blood tested while using DIM and my estrogen levels were well above normal. Therefore, I received Zero effect or possibly a worsening effect. Clomid fixed the problem right away. Bill Roberts saw my blood work. Needless to say I wasn’t very impressed. He isn’t much of a fan either. Therefore, “If” it works it isn’t very significant.

I have also experimented with I3C. IN bulk the stuff smells awful. In fact, after ingesting it, I too began to smell like a corpse. A friend of mine refuses to carry it at his warehouse due to the odor. I don’t mean to rain on anybodies parade -this has just been my and few others experience. Maybe it works for some people.

Chrysin looked good on paper but
to the best of my knowledge was a total bomb.
Even in high doses. Combining with bioperine
may help but one informal study found chrysin had zero effect on estrogen levels (while injected in rats). Doesn’t look good. Chrysin can also be broken down to Apigen–I think which maybe estrogenic and cause gyno all by itself. Bioperine maybe toxic to the testes. There are studies I just have to fetch them. I forget the dosage so that may or may not be relevant. At the moment I would just save my money and use M, or try and score some arimidex. Several completely independent people have said M cured their gyno symptoms-- alone.
Worst case you could always throw in some more
calcium d glucarate.