T Nation

Lyle McDonald

Has anyone experimented with Lyle’s Keto Diet where you consume carbs pre-workout and then maybe some post workout?? Any thoughts on how this worked??? Is it better to just do the carb ups on the weekend?? Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

I’ve a great deal of experience following Lyle’s variation of the traditional ketogenic diet, as you describe. Works well for me, though keep in mind this is a fat loss plan, not a routine you’d follow when you wish to gain any lean mass. It’s easy to do, I experienced no real cravings for carbs during the day (I work out at night), but one must be careful not to overeat during the carb-up day on the weekends. Many do, I believe. Hope this helps. Follow Lyle’s advice, he’s one of the smart ones out there.

OK. Thanks John. Sounds like the CKD is the better way to go over the TKD. I guess I’ll need to say goodbye to my apples and banana’s for a while

Also, Lyle makes the statement that fiber grams should not be counted in the daily allotment of carbs (30 grams). Anyone have any first hand experience on this???

Fiber does not need to be counted, and if you’ve never done a keto diet you’ll quickly find you’re going to need it. Use guar gum or plain psyllium powder, but make sure to read the label as some contain added carbs. I’ve done Lyle’s plan numerous times with great results, but I find that it is very difficult to control appetite on carb-ups. I never consumed any pre-workout carbs, but once I got fairly lean (under 8%) I eventually added a MRP post-workout in place of consuming just protein a la T-Dawg. This added approx. 25 g. carbs but did not hinder fat loss any. I used to use his suggested weight program but I switched over to German Body Comp and it worked awesome.

You’re referring to Lyle’s Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) where you eat carbs only pre and post workout. Although the standard carb-up version has worked for me, the TKD has yielded better results since I’m absolutely out of control on carb-ups and have difficulty eating according to the ideal guidelines (I’m sure I’ve hit 10,000 calories on occassions). The TKD probably doesn’t spare as much muscle, since you never achieve glyocogen supercompensation, but at least you don’t eat yourself into a coma. In a nutshell, I think you achieve faster fat loss (assuming you can get back into ketosis right away) on the TKD, but you may wind up sacrificing more muscle.

What about this…take the t-dawg diet with the post workout carbs. Add in the 30 grams of carbs you can eat during the day and mostly eat them before working out…but, don’t include the grams of carbs that are fiber. What do you guys think of that???

My macro make up would be

139 fat
150 protein
54 carb (24 of them post workout)
25 grams fiber

Would keeping the carbs up at that level plus the fiber do me in???

I think the above diet is incredibly do-able for me. I am a peanut fiend and they would be my fat of choice…but the carbs and fiber in them usually limit their role in a keto diet.

Thanks guys!!

My friend, tfackler, is bringing up a great topic here. I’m especially interested in ketogenic post-workout nutrition. Can a high load of glucose be used for post-workout recovery while in a ketotic state? Lyle intimates this early on in his book when he hints that during ketotis or during exercise-induced ketosis, these carbs are not “recognized” by the liver (his words), and thus are used entirely for musclular energy without becoming stored as fat. Or in other words, one can seriously “carb-up” after lifting and still continue fat loss. Any thoughts on dextrose-based PR recovery while doing the ketogenic thing?

i asked this before.
so here goes again.
if you were following the TKD diet and worked out twice a day, would you carb up before each workout and after each workout?

I wouldn’t train twice a day on ANY type of keto diet unless you’ve done it before successfully. If you actually want to do 2x/day workouts then you’re not training hard enough at each session. Recovery is much slower w/o a normal carb intake. If you’re dead-set on doing so then I would definitely carb after each workout.

People seem to be confusing the keto carb-up with a post workout carb up. Without getting scientific, an ordinary post-workout meal would be say 300-500 calories primarily carbs and protein. Carbing up after a depletion workout is much different and is normally done over a 24-48 hour period. You can’t just super-carb after each workout because your glycogen levels won’t be SEVERELY depleted. Once they’re filled, the extra carbs are going to hit the fat stores. Even if you were completely depleted, it would take many meals to restore glycogen levels. I know I’ve tried to stuff it all down in a 3 hour time-frame, but I’m a sick and stupid bastard.

so, BT, in other words you’re saying that it’s still fine to do a post-workout carb load while doing a keto diet? Or did I misunderstand you?

No, that’s not what he means. You cannot carb up after every workout. That means no carbs. In a CKD you carb up from Friday (after the depletion workout) to Sunday night. Or for greater fat loss, do the depletion Saturday, carb up Saturday night, and resume keto until the next weekend, when you supercompensate. Or you can do a TKD, where you stay in ketosis all of the time, with no carb up, but you will lose some muscle. You carb up preworkout in a TKD.

I’ve followed BodyOpus to the letter and have gotton my bf from 12% to 6% on 1500 cal./day (Mon-Fri)within 2 months, though muscle gains are usually minimal(surprise on 1500cal/day huh?). Ketogenic diets are great for stripping fat and “maintaining” muscle, though I’ve recently posted a message enquiring as to whether anyone out there has actually gained significant mass on a keto diet.

As for post-workout carbs on a CKD, Mr. McDonald told me that you can, but just subtract the total amount of carbs you used for post-workout from the amount you are supposed to consume for the carb-up that weekend. That was assuming a one-day or one-and-half-day carb-up, which is less likely to cause fat storage than a two-day.

On the TKD, you always aim to stay in ketosis, but you can eat “some” (not remotely even close to the amount in the typical “carb-up”) carbs before and after workouts. HOWEVER, Lyle only advocates that you work out with weights 3 times per week, so you’d only be taking in carbs around those 3 occasions. The idea is give you an energy and psychological boost with your workout and to provide a bit of anabolism or anti-catabolism post-workout. If you worked out 6 days a week and carbed around those workouts, you just wouldn’t be in ketosis often enough(not to mention overtraining too). In the long-term though, it will not spare as much muscle as a normal CKD, and if you try to overcompensate by including too many carbs, the fat loss results won’t be as good. I’ll use the TKD if I want faster fat-loss results than a CKD, and am not so concerned with muscle loss. Lyle definitely doesn’t advocate it for the long-term (doesn’t really advocate the CKD long-term either…but for different reasons). CKD attempts to rebuild ALL lost muscle during the previous 5 days of ketosis, and I think that the TKD is simply designed to slow down or deter muscle-catabolism as much as possible. If you are patient, my overall results are normally MUCH better on the CKD, but for the sake of fat-loss only, the TKD works better for me.

Rowbie, how much do you weigh…1500 calories per day is rather meager. Sometimes I tend to cut calories excessively too to try and accelerate fat-loss, but Bodyopus and The Ketogenic Diets advocate calorie reductions of 10-20%. Sounds like you got some pretty good fat-loss results though, so if that was the goal…Giddyup! I always find it easy to restore lost muscle when dieting anyway, so I try to get the cutting phase over as quickly as possible.

OK, guys, thanks–it’s starting to all come together for me now. So let me ask the final, most basic question I have then–what does post-workout nutrition look like on a ketogenic diet?

Depends on whose advice you follow Akicita. Lyle recommends 30-40 g. protein w. no carbs/fat post workout, assuming he hasn’t changed his thinking since the book was written. Coach Poliquin bases it on bodyfat-if you’re over 8 percent, he recommends only protein and glutamine; however, if you’re under 8 percent you can start adding the carbs back in. The T-Dawg diet recommends a MRP such as Grow w. added maltodextrin, although with the new buzz on post-workout nutrition this may change. I sold my Metabolic diet book so I can’t remember for sure but I think DiPasquale said if you consume carbs after workouts, subtract them from daily allotment. Once I started to get lean on my last diet I took in approx. 20 g. carbs post-workout. If you’re new to keto dieting you might want to start w/o any carbs then maybe gradually add them in.

Teddy, just 3 more ???..do you see any benifit in a depleation workout?, I have the carb amounts for carb-up but what about total Cal/carbs/fat during carb-up, If I am lifting MWF when is ideal to start the 24 hour carb-up? And what are some ideal foods to take in on Carb–up? Teddy you have been a HUGE help thanks so much!!