Void the first reply
this is a copy with a few minor corrections after I reread what I hastily wrote.
Please take a look at my “issue of De Novo” post on the Diggity Dog.
At any event, let me shed some light on the issues you bring up, which are all valid
Again, it involves a very fine distinction between lipolytic, anti-lipolytic, and lipogenic. Lyle is right, the process of de novo is very inefficient, and generally speaking, the body does NOT convert carbs to fat, except of course, in a carbohydrate overfeeding situation. Now, here is the fine point. On a high carb bulking phase, you are going to jack the GI a ton, which is anti-lypolytic, so forget about fat loss…the problem becomes that on a high carb bulking phase, most likely any dietary fat intake is going to be converted (esterfied) into triglyceride, because the esterfication raw materials (glucose-insulin-LPL) are in place. In addition, a key point that I feel is being missed on the refeed posts etc. etc. is that there is only a specific (but flexible) storage amount for glycogen. This will depend on one’s level of muscle tissue, but in general, the numbers i have seen most frequently thrown around are:
muscle tissue: approx 400-500g
of course this depends on issues such as level of depletion…however, i think for “approximation purposes” these numbers are pretty good targets…now, once these bad boys are full (particularly the liver, as it controls the overall state of the body). then de novo will indeed begin. Its nice to think that excess carbs will be burned off or otherwise metabolised, but this is not the case as it is in ketosis, when at least some excess calories (ketones) are excreted in the urine…My questions on the refeed were primarily at what point does de novo begin to occur…well, I guess I answered some of my own question…I really don’t agree with those who constantly refer to the fact that you can eat and eat on a refeed (CHO) without risking fat regain…there are rate-limiting factors, but the fact remains you have to pay attention to caloric balance, even if glycogen stores are empty…
another fine point is this: I don’t think people realize that glucose (CHO) loads are generally split in that at least 50% of all glucose loads are accepted by the liver…thus, its not like all ingested glucose goes to empty muscle tissue and then the liver…the liver begins filling up from the moment refeeds begin…and once the liver is full, the possibility for hypertrophic processes to begin (particularly lipogenic hypertrophic processes) is engaged.
I think there is some flexibility with refeeds/CHO loads…between 3500 and 4500 calories maybe and 400-800 carbs…but after that, lipogenic properties are going to predominate…What I am inquiring in my post is to get a more specific scientific or even anecdotal report of when people see this process start to occur, independent of the water retention associated with refeeds/CHO loads…
One final point on a CHO based bulking phase…You risk reducing your T-levels and any fat loss that MIGHT occur with high insulin levels. I advocate an approach similar to Timbo’s with CHO following workouts…but even then, I do think CHO’s post-workout can even be overrated…my personal preference is for a high protein, low carb shake following bulking workouts…if I do have carbs during a bulk phase they are temporally situated during the morning food matrices…
Alright, I am goign to copy and post this “post” on my thread as well, maybe some good conversation can generate.