T Nation

Lr3 Confusion PT II

Ok…

So now i’m aware of the dosages, recon method and administering etc…

Now I’m confused about one more thing…

Q. With regards to using Lr3 PW, what difference/hinderence would it make when adding something like Surge knowing the Insulin surge you get from ingesting those Carbs?

Would the Surge benifit the Lr3? or is it a real bad idea and make you go “hypo” ?

So LR3 + Surge = bad or good idea?

Forgive me if you find this a dumb question.

IGF-1 can act similarly to insulin in the body, though not as powerfully. It is recommended that carbs are consumed with IGF-1, similarly to if you were taking insulin. This being the generally accepted rule, taking in Surge would be a good idea.

I know myself and some other people have felt sluggish throughout the day and sleep poorly on IGF-1 unless extra carbs were included in the diet over and above a large PWO carb serving.

I also notice that I have to take in carbs throughout the day, and not just in one or two big carb meals, or else this fatigue sets in. If this is the case, up the carbs and see what happens.

Thanks! thats really useful

I did kinda think it would be the case but just needed a bit more guidence with it…

Do you think that the best protocol is ONLY after training? to keep it at an optimum effect? it’s just there does seem to be some very conflicting opinions about the timing of dosages.

For example: if you were training EOD then to use the compound after training would be an easy protocol… but what if you were to train 2 days on 1 day off then 2 on then 2 off? it would make the dosages random and back to back…bad idea? or good idea to keep it as raandom as pos to stop down regulation?

Just a thought…

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
IGF-1 can act similarly to insulin in the body, though not as powerfully. It is recommended that carbs are consumed with IGF-1, similarly to if you were taking insulin. This being the generally accepted rule, taking in Surge would be a good idea.

I know myself and some other people have felt sluggish throughout the day and sleep poorly on IGF-1 unless extra carbs were included in the diet over and above a large PWO carb serving.

I also notice that I have to take in carbs throughout the day, and not just in one or two big carb meals, or else this fatigue sets in. If this is the case, up the carbs and see what happens.[/quote]

I’ve done twice per day, once per day, and am currently doing after workouts only. I’ve heard of only after workouts, or 3x/wk, would allow for a longer usage time. Example would be to use 3x/wk after workouts for say six months. I’m currently testing this out to see if the gains are similar with every day or 2x/day dosing.

To answer your question, I don’t know.

if you are going to combine IGF with something that induces insulin release, be very wary of going hypoglycemic. taking both together can amplify effects so just make sure to eat carbs if you feel low in the few hours afterwards.

[quote]wings_931 wrote:
Would the Surge benifit the Lr3?[/quote]

yes there is synergism between insulin and IGF-1 pathways when considering their anabolic abilities

I’m confused!..

So using quick acting carbs PW with the LR3 would make my run the risk of having NOT enough blood sugar? this doesnt make sense?

I thought that using a product like Surge would be useful after using the LR3 to stop me feeling low??

Completely confusing!

Forive me for sounding like a dumbass, but would you be so kind to explain what you mean? many thanks…

[quote]Rusty Barbell wrote:
if you are going to combine IGF with something that induces insulin release, be very wary of going hypoglycemic. taking both together can amplify effects so just make sure to eat carbs if you feel low in the few hours afterwards.[/quote]

so the problem is that Surge induces insulin release moreso than other forms of nutrients. so in eating Surge, you are going to get a greater insulin response than say eating the equivalent amount of carbs. in wheat bread or orange juice and this combined with the IGF-1, which is already weakly active at the insulin receptor, causes more hypo

just be careful if you do the Surge/LR3 combo man. for example, don’t take the LR3, drink surge and then go out driving for 3 hours down the highway, expecting your blood sugar levels not to take a hit.

also not everything is known about the insulin/IGF-1 pathways and how they interact together, but generally activating both simultaneously gives greater growth than just one alone. so in effect, taking LR3 and Surge together might be a good idea if you are trying to get huge, just be wary of what can happen.

The advice to not eat carbs that result in a large insulin response while taking LR3 is complete bullshit. Myself and everyone I know who has taken LR3, along with basic physiological actions of these substances, provides me enough evidence to suggest that you have nothing to worry about.

I knew one guy who took LR3 while on a low-carb diet and never had a problem outside of some increased fatigue. I’ve on many occasions injected 80mcg after working out only to get side tracked and did not eat until two hours or so later.

The only side effect would be a little fatigue, but nothing like injecting insulin or extreme hypoglycemia.

Back to the original suggestion from others to not eat sugars with LR3. Say you take LR3 (or even straight insulin) and say it makes you slip into a hypoglycemic state.

What would you eat to stop the hypo state, eat some low GI/II carbs such as oatmeal? Hell no; you’re going to eat something that quickly brings your blood sugar levels up like juice or glucose tabs.

The body has feedback mechanisms to regulate blood sugar quite well. We’ll even say that your body doesn’t recognize IGF-1 as an insulin-related compound and releases insulin regardless, resulting in a sort of double-dose of insulin compounds.

The body will quickly regulate the release and clearance of its own insulin quick enough to avoid a problem. This is of course based on the fact that many diabetics take insulin at a dose of 1iu per 10g carbs.

It is also based on the fact that most insulin, and especially IGF-1’s insulin-like effects, are not an all-at-once thing. Most have a distinct initial effect, but are active for quite some time in the body, on par with 5 to 24 hours depending.

This is the reason why most people will feel chronic fatigued while taking IGF-1 with not enough carbs throughout the day. The effects are not enough to slip into a hypo coma, but enough to cause some residual fatigue if carbs on not taken in regularly throughout the day.

Thanks man! that does make complete sense…

By the way your knowledge is outstanding.

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
The advice to not eat carbs that result in a large insulin response while taking LR3 is complete bullshit. Myself and everyone I know who has taken LR3, along with basic physiological actions of these substances, provides me enough evidence to suggest that you have nothing to worry about.

I knew one guy who took LR3 while on a low-carb diet and never had a problem outside of some increased fatigue. I’ve on many occasions injected 80mcg after working out only to get side tracked and did not eat until two hours or so later.

The only side effect would be a little fatigue, but nothing like injecting insulin or extreme hypoglycemia.

Back to the original suggestion from others to not eat sugars with LR3. Say you take LR3 (or even straight insulin) and say it makes you slip into a hypoglycemic state.

What would you eat to stop the hypo state, eat some low GI/II carbs such as oatmeal? Hell no; you’re going to eat something that quickly brings your blood sugar levels up like juice or glucose tabs.

The body has feedback mechanisms to regulate blood sugar quite well. We’ll even say that your body doesn’t recognize IGF-1 as an insulin-related compound and releases insulin regardless, resulting in a sort of double-dose of insulin compounds.

The body will quickly regulate the release and clearance of its own insulin quick enough to avoid a problem. This is of course based on the fact that many diabetics take insulin at a dose of 1iu per 10g carbs.

It is also based on the fact that most insulin, and especially IGF-1’s insulin-like effects, are not an all-at-once thing. Most have a distinct initial effect, but are active for quite some time in the body, on par with 5 to 24 hours depending.

This is the reason why most people will feel chronic fatigued while taking IGF-1 with not enough carbs throughout the day. The effects are not enough to slip into a hypo coma, but enough to cause some residual fatigue if carbs on not taken in regularly throughout the day.[/quote]

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

You make me laugh!..

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
The IGF1 peptide binds to the insulin receptor with roughly 100th the afinity of insulin itself, so it’s highly unlikely that 100mcg of IGF1 would trigger a hypoglycemic state.

No offence but this sounds like a classic case of ‘paralysis analysis’ to me.

Bushy[/quote]

ah well perhaps my opinion is biased since i have type1 diabetes and take insulin a lot as it is. i have also dabbled with native IGF-1 use and taking it IM (doses 100-200 ug) definitely lowers my blood sugar noticeably for hours to come and usually overnight as well.

so while you “normal” people (ya lucky bastards) might not be as succeptible to hypoglycemia when using IGF-1, i am, and thus i figure anyone using a drink that is formulated to enhance insulin release in combination with IGF-1 is probably a move to make with caution.

additionally like i said earlier, not everything is known (although a lot is) about IGF-1/insulin interactions and what overlapping physiological pathways they represent so just be careful dude.

Thanks for the opinions everyone…

It would seem that T-Nation does have some sound knowledge on a wide base.

Thanks again to all.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.