[quote]akmcsnarfy wrote:
^ You forgot dumbbell curls, so long as you stand upright with good posture. Adds extra load to lats also[/quote]
They’re now an integral part of my workout for upper trap developement. I have seen massive gains since I started doing them.
Btw does anyone have tips on how I can make my biceps grow? I’m hearing great things about dumbbell flyes.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]johnflower wrote:
Yogi, you have given very little detail. You have not shown a photo, you have not supplied your training logs, you have not said what you have tried. Helping you is hit and miss without more information.
Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem?[/quote]
lol, dude, no offence but your knowledge of bodybuilding techniques is woeful, and I doubt you can help. But ok, here’s my last back session just for your perusal:
-Lat Pulldowns pre-exhaust - 3 sets 15, 12, 10 reps
-Weighted Chins - work up to a heavy 5
-Close Grip Lat Pulldown superset with rear delt flyes/band pull aparts - 4 sets 15, 12, 10, 8 reps for the pulldown, 20, 15, 12, 10 reps for the rear delt flyes/band pul aparts
-Dumbell Chest Supported Row, 5 sets, 12, 10, 8, 10, 12 reps
-Cable Pull Aparts, 3 sets, 12, 10, 12 reps
All sets ramp up (when reps decrease) and down again (when reps increase)
I’m not posting a photo.
So Johnflower, what’d you change?
[/quote]
You’re putting too much emphasis on vertical pulling, and the only rowing you’re doing is chest supported. Maybe you’re not deadlifting much, either. Do heavy bent rows, or Meadows rows, or unsupported heavy dumbbell rows, or one-arm barbell rows first in the routine, and get rid of one of the vertical pulls.
[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]johnflower wrote:
Yogi, you have given very little detail. You have not shown a photo, you have not supplied your training logs, you have not said what you have tried. Helping you is hit and miss without more information.
Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem?[/quote]
lol, dude, no offence but your knowledge of bodybuilding techniques is woeful, and I doubt you can help. But ok, here’s my last back session just for your perusal:
-Lat Pulldowns pre-exhaust - 3 sets 15, 12, 10 reps
-Weighted Chins - work up to a heavy 5
-Close Grip Lat Pulldown superset with rear delt flyes/band pull aparts - 4 sets 15, 12, 10, 8 reps for the pulldown, 20, 15, 12, 10 reps for the rear delt flyes/band pul aparts
-Dumbell Chest Supported Row, 5 sets, 12, 10, 8, 10, 12 reps
-Cable Pull Aparts, 3 sets, 12, 10, 12 reps
All sets ramp up (when reps decrease) and down again (when reps increase)
I’m not posting a photo.
So Johnflower, what’d you change?
[/quote]
You’re putting too much emphasis on vertical pulling, and the only rowing you’re doing is chest supported. Maybe you’re not deadlifting much, either. Do heavy bent rows, or Meadows rows, or unsupported heavy dumbbell rows, or one-arm barbell rows first in the routine, and get rid of one of the vertical pulls.
[/quote]
That’s no accident, my upper back (between my shoulderblades) is way more developed than my lats. Like way, way more developed.
[quote]johnflower wrote:
[quote]Yogi wrote:
oh yeah man, squatting’ll definitely build up my lats[/quote]
Yes they will. As mentioned previously to build a muscle it is helpful to hit it from various angles. Not only that it is helpful to stress the muscles through it’s various functions. In a squat the lats act isometrically and bilaterally maintain the back in neutral (or near) alignment.
It follows that the lats can be worked in various ways:-
That doesn’t mean all lifts that use the lats are good for hypertrophy! In some of those movements the lats only work for part of the time, and that maybe for a short ROM, or isometric. But by combing multiple lat loading movements you can stress the muscle more.
The squats may not be your best lat builder, but they do add to weekly load. So given the choice between squatting, and leg press, Choose squatting.
Same thing with pressing. Instead of pressing from the rack, or sitting down. Clean the bar or dumbbell from the floor. Extra lat work. Not only that, it’ll add load to your entire back, from sacral to cervical spine.
Look for ways to load the lats more, and more often.[/quote]
OMG
welcome to ignore listsville. Population: you
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]akmcsnarfy wrote:
^ You forgot dumbbell curls, so long as you stand upright with good posture. Adds extra load to lats also[/quote]
They’re now an integral part of my workout for upper trap developement. I have seen massive gains since I started doing them.
Btw does anyone have tips on how I can make my biceps grow? I’m hearing great things about dumbbell flyes.[/quote]
ah yes, flyes are a great biceps builder. It’s important to stress the muscle in a variety of ways.
I personally like reverse curls for calves
Yogi, I think you are being a bit ignorant mate… Even if you don’t want to accept everything that johnflower says as a gospel, he does make some good points. How can we give you any accurate advice based on next to no info provided?
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
Btw does anyone have tips on how I can make my biceps grow? I’m hearing great things about dumbbell flyes.[/quote]
ah yes, flyes are a great biceps builder. It’s important to stress the muscle in a variety of ways.
[/quote]
No doubt, flyes are a tremendous biceps builder. Sherrington’s law of irradiation tells us that neighboring muscles are activated when a given muscle is maximally contracted. With that in mind, by gripping the dumbbells tightly the forearms and associated elbow flexors will be forced to contract even harder than in a traditional curl. Combined with the maximum contraction of the anterior deltoid at the top of the movement, total biceps recruitment is clearly superior to a traditional standing dumbbell curl.
Additionally, the stretch achieved at the shoulder joint (when the humerus is parallel or below parallel to the ground) will stretch the biceps fascia nearest the muscle origin, thus further increasing muscle work and specifically increasing activation in the short head of the biceps (which crosses the shoulder joint, unlike the long head) since coaches like Poliquin and Thibaudeau have often used the motto “the muscle that’s stretched the most is worked the most.”
Thus, therefore, and ergo, by stretching the biceps maximally while contracting the forearms, gripping muscles, and deltoids maximally, the dumbbell flye is certainly an overlooked biceps builder!!
(Sorry, I was inspired. Wanted to see what it felt like to talk like I knew what I was saying without really contributing much. Kinda neat feeling, but makes me glad I only use my powers for good.)
[quote]Yogi wrote:
my upper back (between my shoulderblades) is way more developed than my lats. Like way, way more developed.[/quote]
I’d pre-exhaust with a stiff-arm cable pulldown, several sets in the 8-10 range exaggerating the stretch at the top and contraction at the bottom, instead of pre-exhausting with lat pulldowns. Also, x2 on the suggestion for more rows. Meadows specifically talked about some one-arm variations for the lower lats here:
Playing with your stance and hip position is key.
[quote]johnflower wrote:
Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem?[/quote]
Have you built large lats and rear delts because of bent presses? If not, why have you been suggesting them in several bodypart-specific threads?
[quote]juverulez wrote:
Yogi, I think you are being a bit ignorant mate… Even if you don’t want to accept everything that johnflower says as a gospel, he does make some good points. How can we give you any accurate advice based on next to no info provided?[/quote]
OMG
I said my lower lats could use a bit of work, and asked for tips people used to get there’s to build. I don’t see why I need to give my training logs for the last six years, shoe size, favourite colour or whatever
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
Btw does anyone have tips on how I can make my biceps grow? I’m hearing great things about dumbbell flyes.[/quote]
ah yes, flyes are a great biceps builder. It’s important to stress the muscle in a variety of ways.
[/quote]
No doubt, flyes are a tremendous biceps builder. Sherrington’s law of irradiation tells us that neighboring muscles are activated when a given muscle is maximally contracted. With that in mind, by gripping the dumbbells tightly the forearms and associated elbow flexors will be forced to contract even harder than in a traditional curl. Combined with the maximum contraction of the anterior deltoid at the top of the movement, total biceps recruitment is clearly superior to a traditional standing dumbbell curl.
Additionally, the stretch achieved at the shoulder joint (when the humerus is parallel or below parallel to the ground) will stretch the biceps fascia nearest the muscle origin, thus further increasing muscle work and specifically increasing activation in the short head of the biceps (which crosses the shoulder joint, unlike the long head) since coaches like Poliquin and Thibaudeau have often used the motto “the muscle that’s stretched the most is worked the most.”
Thus, therefore, and ergo, by stretching the biceps maximally while contracting the forearms, gripping muscles, and deltoids maximally, the dumbbell flye is certainly an overlooked biceps builder!!
(Sorry, I was inspired. Wanted to see what it felt like to talk like I knew what I was saying without really contributing much. Kinda neat feeling, but makes me glad I only use my powers for good.)[/quote]
LOL!
@ Chis, yeah man I’ve been pre-exhausting with straight arm pulldowns for years.
Maybe I do need more rows, I’ve always had a much better upper back that I have lats, so I only do one or two rows per session these days.
I’ll switch it up for a while and prioritise some different row variations for a while and see if that helps.
Also, I think maybe I’ve just convinced myself I have a “lower lat” problem when really it’s just because of how high they insert.
Damn you, mum! Damn you, dad!
I’ll second the facts that
A) standing biceps curls done with the correct posture also give your shoulder girdle a good workout
And
B) flies cane your biceps when done properly.
Going back to the topic in hand, just think that the primary goal of the lats is to pull the shoulder girdle down and back, so as the bottom of the lats controls the very extreme of the contraction, that’s where you need to concentrate on.
I think you shouldn’t ignore johnflower’s advice. The things he wrote about the lats are true.
Anyway, if you can’t do anything but vertical pulls or chest-supported rows (which will work the lats at the gleno-humeral joint only, as opposed to bent rows for instance), you could try hollowing your back and letting the scaps elevate at the bottom of supinated chin-ups , and arching and leaning back at the top while achieving full shoulder extension (you should feel that low in the back).
P.S. Most people have similar insertions, the lats are the largestt upper body muscles, cover the lower part of the thoracic region and the lumbar region and strerch all the way down to the sacrum.
Firstly, lol.
Secondly, have you tried anything along the lines of a straight arm pushdown? I don’t know what they’re called… but pretty much just sticking in the very bottom range of what would normally be a straight arm pulldown. Specifically pulling down and toward the body.
EDIT: I was just thinking back on how I had done these after I wrote it.
Not sure how much these details matter, but, I did them kneeling, with the bar attachment, with a close overhand false grip (no thumbs), and bringing the bar all the way to the quads.
I think kneeling might be important though, just because it forces you to bear the load with your lats more and not cheat as much with your hips or legs or whatever, especially as you increase the weight.
Something to considering trying if you hadn’t, I guess.
[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:
I think you shouldn’t ignore johnflower’s advice. The things he wrote about the lats are true.[/quote]
you think squatting will build better lats?
Squatting can do, yes, purely on the basis that your back is supporting the weight whilst your legs squat it. You can have the strongest legs in the world, but if your back isn’t up to scratch it’s gonna fold before you get near what your legs can handle.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:
I think you shouldn’t ignore johnflower’s advice. The things he wrote about the lats are true.[/quote]
you think squatting will build better lats?[/quote]
Not really, but it’s true that the lats will be highly involved to stabilize the spine under heavy loading, and that this will add to the cumulative stress that the lats receive. John Phung, who has written an article here, said on his blog that he just presses and squats and that his back, including lats, is strong from all the squatting he does. Deadlifting will hit the lats harder IMHO. Anyway, I’m not saying that squatting alone, nor bent pressing for that matter, will optimally build the lats, just that they are a huge muscle group and perform many more functions than just extension and adduction of the glenohumeral joint.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]johnflower wrote:
Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem?[/quote]
Have you built large lats and rear delts because of bent presses? If not, why have you been suggesting them in several bodypart-specific threads?[/quote]
Yogi, this an example of a good question. Bent Press is an uncommon lift, and I have sung its praises far, and wide, as a Cure-All for every problem under the sun.
Chris, I offer an argument based on quotes from experts in the lift, reasoning from the path the body takes to complete the movement, and subjective opinion from looking in the mirror and relating that to the records in my training log.
– In short –
Bent Press is a lift that takes the body through a large ROM, and multiple planes. Like any major compound movement it is capable of loading many muscles; including the lats and posterior deltoids. No other method on earth will allow you to lift more weight with one hand above your head.
– Quotes from experts who have lifted more than 200lbs –
Alan Calvert wrote in Super Strength (1924), http://www.bobwhelan.com/history/superstrength24.htm :-
“…and lift a 245-lb. bell from the floor, you will find that it requires a great deal of strength in the back. If you will try to imagine yourself with your body bent over that far, and the same weight supported on the up-raised right arm, you will commence to realize the enormous amount of strength in the back, the sides, the arms, and the shoulders, which a man must have before he can make a bent-press with that weight.”
Harold Ansorge’s thoughts in Performing the Bent Press Properly
by Harold Ansorge (1943) The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban: The Bent Press - Harold Ansorge :-
“The shoulder joint is locked by tensing the deltoid and all surrounding muscles. The latissimus dorsi, pectoral, serratus magnus, biceps, etc.; upon a record weight all of these muscles are brought very strongly into play.” … “In this stage of a lighter press, the body could be brought erect by the strength of the spinor erector and latissimus dorsi muscles.”
“The side muscles, the external obliques, and the muscles of the lower back, spinae erector, meet in back and are the principle muscles that twist and turn the body to either side. By constant practice of turning only to one side, the muscles of one side will be contracted to the extent of having more contraction and those on the other side more extension. After constant practice in trying to attain this position, the back and side muscles referred to will form a very prominent ledge, and IT IS UPON THIS LEDGE THAT I WOULD HAVE EVERY PRESSER SET HIS ELBOW AT THE START OF THE PRESS.”
Bob Hoffman wrote in How I Bent-Pressed 250 lbs.
by Bob Hoffman (1938) The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban: How I Bent-Pressed 250 lbs. - Bob Hoffman :-
“…the weight was supported on the side entirely on the broad and powerful latissimus muscles.”
– Biomechanically –
The lats work:-
Reference: Muscles Testing and Function, 4th Edition, Florence Peterson Kendall, Elizabeth Kendall NcCreary, and Patricia Geise Provance
– Personal experience –
From my training log; I started Bent Pressing in May with a 20kg dumbbell, On Nov 20 I did 55kg barbell (bodyweight 72kg). As evidence I submit the following video:-
I have not done any rows, or pullup, variations since 01 Sep 2014. Based on observation in the mirror, my back (and specifically my lats) are bigger (not massive, just bigger than before). This could be my imagination, it could also be because I clean the weight, one hand or two if heavy, rather than from the BP. The point is not that I am big man, but that I am credible as a serious lifter who has spent enough time under the bar to observe its effects. I have a video of me BPing from May 13th, but the quality and camera setup make it hard to compare:-
What this means is I am a novice in the lift. An intermediate lifter will do bodyweight. I put it to you that lifting 75% of BW, and doing them for several months, is enough for me to comment on which muscles feel the load. During the lift I observe marked strain in the following areas:-
– Summary –
The great weight that can be Bent Pressed may make it useful to someone wanting to develop their lats or posterior deltoids. Whether it does or not is a matter for you to experiment with.
[quote]harper2704 wrote:
Squatting can do, yes, purely on the basis that your back is supporting the weight whilst your legs squat it. You can have the strongest legs in the world, but if your back isn’t up to scratch it’s gonna fold before you get near what your legs can handle.[/quote]
so would you recommend squatting to bring up someone’s lats?