'Lower' Lats

I just recently wrote this. Hope this helps: Facebook

this was just posted by JM.

From experience, and from reading, there are many ways to bigger lats. Universally it’s about lifting more than you did last week/month/year. Bigger weights are more important than details such as hand position.

Some ideas not mentioned previously:-

  • Add load to lats by cleaning barbells, and dumbells before doing overhead sets (or every rep) This means doing doing all overhead work standing, and is addition to rows and pullups. This means both one hand cleans for one arm work as well as two hand cleans. The lats work hard to keep the bar close to the body during the pull from the floor. Barbell Snatching (One and Two Hand), and Deadlifts also increase the weekly load on the lats.
  • Bent Pressing (heavy, with a barbell) hits the Lats hard. With practice you should be doing 2.5 times your One Arm Press. Getting into the low position and recovering work the lats hard in their role as unilateral spinal extensors, as well as in isometric contraction to stabilise the shoulder joint.

[quote]johnflower wrote:
Bigger weights are more important than details such as hand position.
[/quote]

Uh,… no, not if the stress isn’t going where you want it to. All the talk of hand position relates to the angle of your arms, which will reflect the angle of pull on your lats during the exercise. The angle of your torso also relates to how the ratio of horizontal plane vs vertical plane back muscles break down.

Just focusing on weights is just one variable in the equation. This is why so many gym rats spend years chasing #s and still look like crap.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]johnflower wrote:
Bigger weights are more important than details such as hand position.
[/quote]

Uh,… no, not if the stress isn’t going where you want it to. All the talk of hand position relates to the angle of your arms, which will reflect the angle of pull on your lats during the exercise. The angle of your torso also relates to how the ratio of horizontal plane vs vertical plane back muscles break down.

Just focusing on weights is just one variable in the equation. This is why so many gym rats spend years chasing #s and still look like crap.

S[/quote]
bodybuilding 101 sucka

I feel very strongly about this answer now after doing a 6 week dup powerlifting style block, and actually feeling like my physique went slightly backwards during that time

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
bodybuilding 101 sucka

I feel very strongly about this answer now after doing a 6 week dup powerlifting style block, and actually feeling like my physique went slightly backwards during that time[/quote]

I jumped in the wrong forum. I’m quite ignorant of BBing.

I find inverted rows to really help me focus on the lats. The reason is that the stress is taken off the spinal erectors (unlike bent over rows), allowing you to really focus on lats and mid-traps/rhomboids. If your back strength is weak, you may find it hard at the beginning, but it is definitely worth it. You may want to wait a while before adding to your bodyweight as well.

Couple of tips…I use a barbell on my rack with feet on a bench. I make sure the barbell is high enough to allow me to fully protract the scapula on the way down, but not too high (i.e. above bench) as this makes the lift easier. Also, keep your chin tucked in throughout, and I like to pause for a split second at the bottom (which helps me “think” about scapular retraction - this is necessary to initiate the lift at the bottom). Finally, a full rep includes full protraction of scapula at bottom, and touching chest to bar at the top (I touch around the sternum, just like a reverse bench press).

Hope this helps.

yogi

You need to tell us how you know that your lower lats need improvement. Did a top level judge tell you, or did you wake up, take a selfie in the mirror and decide from that? RyanbCXG asked for a photo a couple of times, you have not supplied this. Before you can be helped we need to establish that there is a problem, either your muscles are small, or you’re imagining it.

Then we need to see your training logs. You have not told us what you have tried, nor how effective, or ineffective your experiments have been. Maybe you need to do new exercises, maybe you need to change how you’re doing exercises, or maybe you need to tweak volume/intensity for an exercise. With that we need to know what you’re putting into your body, someone who relies solely on food may respond better to one method of training whilst someone who takes other stuff may respond better to another.

How much money do you make from your physical appearance? If BBing is your job, pay for good advice. If you just want to look good on the beach then don’t worry about your “lower lats”: do the major movements and whatever will be, will be. BBing is subjective, one person will say small, another big. If you’re not competing use Maslow’s heirarchy of needs to drive your aesthetic sensibility.

On the bigger weights over hand position. This is about prioritising for results. A row or pullup with any hand position will trump an isolation movement. That’s not to say that hand position doesn’t matter, just that favouring lifts that use a greater weight over those that use a lesser weight maybe helpful. This isn’t to say don’t isolate, just load with the heavy lifts first and use the isolation exercise to accumulate more volume.

GrindOverMatter, that your physique went backwards whilst doing a PL block is interesting. Can you go into detail? All bodyparts, or just some? Would you do a similar style training again with some changes in programming, if so, what would they be? Did you get stronger? If you did would the extra strength allow more progress to be made with a hypertrophy style program?

TheMightyStu, I agree that working multiple planes is important. Whilst I don’t “BB”, I am interested in general strength. The principles are similar; hitting multiple functions of the body rather than a narrow range of lifts. This is why I threw Bent Pressing in as a suggestion, it allows a large weight to be lifting through multiple planes, and hammers the lats (amongst other muscles) hard and in a way not targeted well by other lifts (especially if starting each rep with a One Arm Clean).

Some people do look like crap despite chasing big numbers. Perhaps this is because they focus on too few movement patterns, or perhaps they eat badly. Hard to say without specifying a particular person. I would suggest that a person who lifts heavy, with a wide range of movements, and a low bodyfat would look good, wrong shape to place in a BBing comp, but good enough to increase their chances of getting laid.

It’s cool Johnflower, I’ll just do loads of bent press.

You are not someone I will ever take bodybuilding advice from.

Yogi, you have given very little detail. You have not shown a photo, you have not supplied your training logs, you have not said what you have tried. Helping you is hit and miss without more information.

Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem? They hit your target area. Whether they’re better or worse then any other lift for your purpose is impossible to know without feedback from you. Lifting is experimental, what works for one person may not for another, BPs may not work for you. My gut feeling is that if you lift a barbell 60% of your bodyweight with one hand, for 5x5 each side, you’ll experience good results. And that’s a novice weight, the ratio for the BP to the One Arm Press is 2.5.

[quote]johnflower wrote:
Yogi, you have given very little detail. You have not shown a photo, you have not supplied your training logs, you have not said what you have tried. Helping you is hit and miss without more information.

Have you done Bent Presses? If not, how do you know they wouldn’t solve your problem?[/quote]

lol, dude, no offence but your knowledge of bodybuilding techniques is woeful, and I doubt you can help. But ok, here’s my last back session just for your perusal:

-Lat Pulldowns pre-exhaust - 3 sets 15, 12, 10 reps
-Weighted Chins - work up to a heavy 5
-Close Grip Lat Pulldown superset with rear delt flyes/band pull aparts - 4 sets 15, 12, 10, 8 reps for the pulldown, 20, 15, 12, 10 reps for the rear delt flyes/band pul aparts
-Dumbell Chest Supported Row, 5 sets, 12, 10, 8, 10, 12 reps
-Cable Pull Aparts, 3 sets, 12, 10, 12 reps

All sets ramp up (when reps decrease) and down again (when reps increase)

I’m not posting a photo.

So Johnflower, what’d you change?

I have no idea whether you should change that or not. That is a single session. If your “lower lats” are lagging then it is because for many months, or years, you have neglected them. You have only given part of your program too. All muscles respond to volume accumulated over the training period. No doubt you’re pulling from the floor (DLs, Cleans, Snatches), and squatting, all of which add to load on your lats. What is your training history over the past months?

Without the photo we’re relying on your opinion of your appearance. It’s possible that it’s only in your head… that the BB experts in this forum might consider them good!

Super slow standing power pulls on the pull down cable machine using both hands on a handle designed for one hand.

Sit down into a squat position, chest out, head up, angle your body forward until you feel like you’re starting to work on keeping balance then sloooooowly pull your hands to your mid chest, a minimum of 10 seconds, preferably 15 to 20, then hold this position for 10 seconds and feel the contraction, then control the handle back up for another 10-15 seconds. That’s 1 rep. Do 4 reps for 5 sets and you’re golden.

My lower lats popped out nicely after doing these although that wasn’t even my aim, I’m just trying to get stronger.

[quote]johnflower wrote:
I have no idea whether you should change that or not. That is a single session. If your “lower lats” are lagging then it is because for many months, or years, you have neglected them. You have only given part of your program too. All muscles respond to volume accumulated over the training period. No doubt you’re pulling from the floor (DLs, Cleans, Snatches), ans squatting, all of which add to load on your lats. What is your training history over the past months?

Without the photo we’re relying on your opionion of your appearance. It’s possible that it’s only in your head… that the BB experts in this forum might consider them good![/quote]

oh yeah man, squatting’ll definitely build up my lats

[quote]harper2704 wrote:
Super slow standing power pulls on the pull down cable machine using both hands on a handle designed for one hand.

Sit down into a squat position, chest out, head up, angle your body forward until you feel like you’re starting to work on keeping balance then sloooooowly pull your hands to your mid chest, a minimum of 10 seconds, preferably 15 to 20, then hold this position for 10 seconds and feel the contraction, then control the handle back up for another 10-15 seconds. That’s 1 rep. Do 4 reps for 5 sets and you’re golden.

My lower lats popped out nicely after doing these although that wasn’t even my aim, I’m just trying to get stronger.[/quote]

that’s interesting, sounds kinda like the stretchers that John Meadows does. I could never really get them to feel right, but I might try slowing them way down like you suggested

Yeah it’s doing them super slow that allows you to control and feel each muscle contract all the way down your back until you hit the lower lats as your hands reach your chest.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
oh yeah man, squatting’ll definitely build up my lats[/quote]

Yes they will. As mentioned previously to build a muscle it is helpful to hit it from various angles. Not only that it is helpful to stress the muscles through it’s various functions. In a squat the lats act isometrically and bilaterally to maintain the back in neutral (or near) alignment.

It follows that the lats can be worked in various ways:-

  • Vertical pull (pullup/chin/pulldown/pullover)
  • Horizontal pull (rows with dumbbell, barbell, or machine)
  • Pulls from the floor, in keeping the bar close to the body (DLs, Cleans, Snatches)
  • Bilaterally to extend, or maintain extension of the spine, (Squats, Pulls from the floor, Carries such as Farmer Walks)
  • Unilaterally to extend, or maintain extension of the spine, (Bent Press, One Arm Snatch, One Arm Clean, One Arm DL, Get Up)

That doesn’t mean all lifts that use the lats are good for hypertrophy! In some of those movements the lats only work for part of the time, and that maybe for a short ROM, or isometric. But by combining multiple lat loading movements you can stress the muscle more.

The squats may not be your best lat builder, but they do add to weekly load. So given the choice between squatting, and leg press, Choose squatting.

Same thing with pressing. Instead of pressing from the rack, or sitting down. Clean the bar or dumbbell from the floor. Extra lat work. Not only that, it’ll add load to your entire back, from sacral to cervical spine.

Look for ways to load the lats more, and more often.

^ You forgot dumbbell curls, so long as you stand upright with good posture. Adds extra load to lats also

[quote]akmcsnarfy wrote:
^ You forgot dumbbell curls, so long as you stand upright with good posture. Adds extra load to lats also[/quote]
At the lower end of the continuum. But not the same as FWs with a multiple of bodyweight. Minor loading will have minor effect, major loading major, all loading is cumulative. It’s about maximising opportunuties to load, rather than doing standing bicep curls for the purpose of building lats.

But this is splitting hairs. OP has not said how he knows that his “lower lats” are lagging, i.e. a top level judge telling him so. Nor has he supplied a photo. Nor by mentioned which criteria he uses to measure his “lower lats”. It may be all in his head. In which case no lift in the world will help him. He also hasn’t gone into detail about what he has been doing over the past months and years, knowing this would make it easier to tailor advice to his circumstance.

Until he does we are all just speculating as to what he would benefit from. Maybe it’s a particular lift, maybe it’s how he lifts, maybe it has to do with frequency, reps, sets, tempo, rest periods, and programming. Perhaps he just needs to learn how to contract the muscles well whilst posing? There have been a lot of good ideas put forward by many people in this thread… whether they’re good for him is the unknown.

GOMAD!!!