Ive already said why above. It shortens the stroke and takes a lot of stress off the shoulders. You dont have to do a Chinese IPF arch every time, but pulling the shoulder blades together and arching the lower back will create a more efficient stroke. This will also allow you to tuck your elbows and touch lower on the chest/abdomen which also takes stress off the shoulders.
[quote]RJay Floyd wrote:
Ive already said why above. It shortens the stroke and takes a lot of stress off the shoulders. You dont have to do a Chinese IPF arch every time, but pulling the shoulder blades together and arching the lower back will create a more efficient stroke. This will also allow you to tuck your elbows and touch lower on the chest/abdomen which also takes stress off the shoulders. [/quote]
Or, since I believe many in this thread to also be going after development and not just “strength”, you could learn to let your chest take the majority of the stress. I don’t arch my back and I have never had problems with this. I am stronger than some of the numbers I see tossed around for some who claim powerlifting so no, I don’t think that your shoulders are at risk of so much strain during a properly lifted bench press that you need to arch your back in order to remove the stress. If that were the case, the decline bench would be considered the greater mass builder for chest. It isn’t.
Unless you pause your bench when your humerous parallel to the ground you will probably injur your shoulder if you don’t arch. Even for bodybuilding, arching the upper back pre-stretches the pecs.
As for strength, if I bench flat back and with a medium grip, the bar rises about 13-14 inches. With an arch and maximal wide grip it is about 6 1/2 inches. It makes about a 10% difference in maximal weight.
Also, arching the back makes it more of a decline motion which is much safer on the shoulders. And it requires tight lats which provide cusioning on the way down. Also, when the legs push, the force on the scapula rotates them downward which actively moves the weight as well.
And I think a very slightly decline bench (with no arch) IS a better mass builder-although even better with dumbells. Anatomically, the line of the lower head for insertion to the mid-origin is slightly declined and it provides a straight stroke rather than a shifting stroke in which the shoulders must rotate. Just my opinion.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Unless you pause your bench when your humerous parallel to the ground you will probably injur your shoulder if you don’t arch. Even for bodybuilding, arching the upper back pre-stretches the pecs.
As for strength, if I bench flat back and with a medium grip, the bar rises about 13-14 inches. With an arch and maximal wide grip it is about 6 1/2 inches. It makes about a 10% difference in maximal weight.
Also, arching the back makes it more of a decline motion which is much safer on the shoulders. And it requires tight lats which provide cusioning on the way down. Also, when the legs push, the force on the scapula rotates them downward which actively moves the weight as well.[/quote]
I disagree with this, but do agree with an earlier point about bringing the shoulder blades together. For me, this has become a natural movement that happens without me thinking about it anymore. That doesn’t require me to arch my back and this has not promoted shoulder injuries.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Unless you pause your bench when your humerous parallel to the ground you will probably injur your shoulder if you don’t arch. [/quote]
Also, I do pause at near parallel (slightly below)…or about an inch from my chest. I come down low enough to get a slight stretch in the pec area, but not more than that. If you are coming down much lower than that, I can see why you may be getting injured.
[quote]RJay Floyd wrote:
It shortens the stroke and takes a lot of stress off the shoulders. You dont have to do a Chinese IPF arch every time, but pulling the shoulder blades together and arching the lower back will create a more efficient stroke. [/quote]
Point well taken…
But what are your oppinions on arching your back on some cycles, e.g. strength, and arching less/if at all on mass cycles?
And now that we are on the back-subject, what are your oppinions on “cracking”* your joints, (I’m not sure if that is what you call it in English…)?
*In a painless way, you know, that leaves a sort of reliefed feeling.
[quote]Tears wrote:
RJay Floyd wrote:
It shortens the stroke and takes a lot of stress off the shoulders. You dont have to do a Chinese IPF arch every time, but pulling the shoulder blades together and arching the lower back will create a more efficient stroke.
Point well taken…
But what are your oppinions on arching your back on some cycles, e.g. strength, and arching less/if at all on mass cycles?
[/quote]
For a non-arched mass type cycle-or even in the early stages of a cycle I bench flat back but prop the foot of the bench up to give it a SLIGHT decline. I am talking about propping the foot of the bench up just 5-7 inches to put me in the same position as in an arched bench.
I would no longer ever do wide grip totally flat back flat benches. I had tendinitous for 3 months at one point and could not bench 135 totally flat-although my slight decline and slight incline weights were totally unaffected both over 300.
My personal favorite is to bench press on a slight decline. I fell this shifts more emphasis to the pectorals, with less on the front deltoids and pec tendon. This tendon is vulnerable to injury when using the conventional flat bench press.
-Dorian Yates
Granted who knows if he actually wrote that, and he did tear his pec anyway. We’re all built a little different.
I believe there are people who regularly train all body parts effectively and have good strength in their traps and rhomboids needed for proper scapula retraction. Whether they’re walking around or laying back for bench, shoulders pulled back, their scapula retracted and depressed.
There are people who display excessive scapula protraction and rounded shoulders which can lead to injury. Exercise science and PT courses require any person whether they’re a beginner, child, athlete or bodybuilder to keep their scapula retracted (shoulder blades together) and depressed - while maintaining the natural curve of the spine (in accordance with Federation of International Sports Aerobic and Fitness (FISAF) guidelines). Proper form requirements recommend for barbell bench/dumbbell bench, shoulder blades are to be squeezed together and depressed at all times throughout the movement.
Given that in accordance with the form requirements covers trainers up to several million in public liability insurance against injury damage claims, promoting more than the natural curve of the spine and scapula retraction and depression would be up to the individual. I can’t answer if promoting an excessive arch would lead to case for an injury claim, but as stated laying flat on the bench and promoting shoulders back and down is regarded as a safe technique.
Just to restate what has already been said, you cannot maintain tightness in your upper body with the feet in the air.
When you raise the feet, you posteriorly tilt the pelvis; this motion flattens out the normal lordotic curve. When you reduce the lordotic curve, the kyphotic (thoracic) curve must flatten out as well (otherwise, your upper body would lift off the bench, as in a crunch). With the kyphotic curve eliminated, the scapulae are automatically protracted; there goes the pre-stretch for the pec minor and serratus anterior.
With a flat torso, the bar path is markedly longer; this increases the amount of extension needed at the glenohumeral joint to get the bar down to the chest. Hyperextension combined with internal rotation and approximation is a recipe for shoulder injuries.
PS - If you bench the wrong way but haven’t had any shoulder problems, you still don’t qualify as an expert on what people should and shouldn’t do. You are an “n” of 1.
The single most important factor is likely shape of the acromion process. 70% of the cases of subacromial impingement occur in those with hook-shaped acromion (1/3 of the population).
Thanks Eric.
I searched on this site for benching and arching and noticed a number of people recommended the ‘bench press 600 pounds’ article: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_115b600
Are there any others that come to mind with photos illustrating form?
Also found a couple of articles by Mike Robertson that are useful:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=570881
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459846
He describes not an excessive arch in the lower back, but actually a continual arch between your upper and lower back.
I’ll give them a closer read to digest the information.
And continuing through the glutes, hams and calves. In my opinion.
I do some type of traction every day. I also pop my back but its in the act of stretching. Its not to specifically pop my back.
[quote]Tears wrote:
RJay Floyd wrote:
It shortens the stroke and takes a lot of stress off the shoulders. You dont have to do a Chinese IPF arch every time, but pulling the shoulder blades together and arching the lower back will create a more efficient stroke.
Point well taken…
But what are your oppinions on arching your back on some cycles, e.g. strength, and arching less/if at all on mass cycles?
And now that we are on the back-subject, what are your oppinions on “cracking”* your joints, (I’m not sure if that is what you call it in English…)?
*In a painless way, you know, that leaves a sort of reliefed feeling.[/quote]
On the issue of when to use, I dont have a set schedule. If I have my shirt on or am doing max effort day, i will get a good arch. If I am doing rep work Ill just pull my shoulder blades together and arch a little bit. For example, today we did reverse green band press. I did my regular sets with a big arch up to a single. Then I did 2 board with a little bit less of an arch until my training partner started talking crap. Then I did close grips with just my shoulder blades together and soft touch. If im moving max weight, I arch pretty good. If not, ill relax it more.
Reading further articles, I noticed with say incline dumbbell press, there doesn’t seem to be the same emphasis on an arch, but more a focus on shoulder retraction. ( see Mike Robertson article http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=535872 )
So the arch is mainly for barbell bench press? Would you use it for HS and dumbbells?
[quote]SUPERUNKNOWN wrote:
Reading further articles, I noticed with say incline dumbbell press, there doesn’t seem to be the same emphasis on an arch, but more a focus on shoulder retraction. ( see Mike Robertson article http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=535872 )
So the arch is mainly for barbell bench press? Would you use it for HS and dumbbells?[/quote]
It would seem to me that arching on an incline wouldn’t be very easy to do, nor very appropriate or effective.
I have used an arch for flat DB bench and without. I like both, but prefer no arch with DBs. I save the arch for barbell.
Question: I have noticed that the arch significatly helps me get my lats into the lift. Is this common?
Personal note:
As to barbell vs. dumbell, I actually increased my barbell bench significantly by doing DB Bench and close grip BB bench only. No regular/wide, flat BB benching during that period at all. (I’m obviously not suggesting that anyone else would improve from that.)
Matthew
If I were you I would stop arching. Also, before benching stretch and warm-up your back.