T Nation

Low Test Extreme Newbie Help with TRT


#1

I was looking for some input from guys who frequent this board and would appreciate any input.
I'm 32 years old and I have weight trained consistantly if not constantly for 2 plus years. Before that I was a 29 year old couch potato. 5-8 180 I intially droped 40 lbs. At that point I tried to put on some lean muscle.

Only success I found was a cycle of winstrol tabs only in Summer 08. Put on 20 lbs and with Novadex post cycle I kept 10 of those lbs on. On the cycle and coming off the cycle a year ago I felt fantastic. But since fall 08 i've slowly gone downhill. Here and there i was trying a Pro Hormone called Hemaguno with mixed results. But now I have all the symptoms of someone with low t.

I got checked a month ago for test and thyroid. Thyroid was fine but test was around 250. My doctor said I was hypogonadal and sent me to my urologist. My first meeting with urologist he said I was low side of normal which is BS becasue I'm 32. I started the appointment by telling him I discussed it with my wife and I wanted to be as aggressive as possible with treatment.

It seems you have to wait three weeks to get an appt with any doctor in my town. Anyway he did a visual exam of testes etc. and said he wanted to send me for more bloodwork. He wants test and LH checked. He demanded I get it done in the morning since my original test was at 4pm. I feel he is manipulating the test to get it as high as possible. He said I may need to see an endocrinologist if LH is off. He discussed TRT options.

He even said pills which I didn't think were an option anymore but pushed gel or patch. I told him injections were my choice should we go that route. He was discouraging. Said you get extreme highs and lows. I'm seeing him in a week when he gets these results. I know I want test injections. I think I should have something else but I don't know what. Clomid, HCG?

I've noticed the last couple of weeks my nipples are coning if that makes sense. They aren't sensitive, but they seem bigger. There are no "anti-aging" doctors near me. I live in Western PA. I want to get in fantastic shape and I want to do it the safe effective way. I know I have low test and I have trouble putting on muscle. My training and diet are great, this I know.

If anything I have overtrained in the past. Any input or advice from people would be appreciated. What I could say to my doctor? What I should push for? How much/how often? Also if anyone knows someone who is better suited for this in my area? I'm willing to travel a little bit. My doctor seemed clueless.


#2

Read the threads here. There will be a lot of info you are looking for already discussed at length. Here's a good place to start. Good Luck
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/trt_protocol_for_injections


#3

Good point. I've read that post and plan on talking over some of those points with my urologist this week and my pcp next week. Between the two of them I hope they help me. If not I think I'll have to fly out to the west coast to see a doctor who has more experience with hormones.

Not only do I have to convince my doctor to start TRT but I need to talk him into giving me HCG (so my boys don't shrivel up) and somthing like Novadex. I'm not thinking he is going to go along with it. Again, these doctors seem clueless. More clueless than me.


#4

Novadex is what?

Novedex TX is not Nolvadex

Novedex is quite useless. You need Arimidex/anastrozole, 1.0mg per week.

Novedex is a name that is designed to deceive you.

You can read this:
forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=379461&d=1169188171
Note in the lab tables that estradiol increased a lot! If this is an AI, its a failure. One figure in the tables is off by a factor of 100.

The article states:
"""In young men receiving daily 1.0-mg doses of the irreversible AI anastrozole for 10 wk, contrary to the effects of testosterone withdrawal there were significant decreases in E2 with concomitant increases in serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)."""

Am I supposed to believe anything that is stated in that article? Anastrozole is absolutely not an "irreversible AI". Also, most research on anastrozole in men shows that T, LH and FSH are increased. So why do these people state the opposite. And "testosterone withdrawal" comes out of left field with another WTF are these guy smoking?

They obviously did not have anyone review or properly proof read this 'research'. The paper also should be stating the source of any agents used. Where did they get the material for the sugar capsules? Where did they get the Novedex TX? From a retail store shelf or from the manufacturer? If from the manufacturer, there can be doubts about what was in the product - improperly sampled. Was it 'doped'? Why would this so-called AI increase E2 levels if it did not have testosterone in it. If this product increased your T levels by reducing E2 levels, which it did not, then why were LH&FSH levels not changed in the active group? If T increased as they stated, we would also not expect to see increases in hematocrit - there were none.

They also need to demonstrate that there is no cross activation of the ingredients or their metabolites on the lab testes. Are the ingredients or metabolites creating falsely high T readings or increasing E readings? If that was happening, we would see increases in T and or E, while LH and FSH could be unaffected - which was the case. That would also be consistent with minor Anabolic results. There should have be new cases or worsting of acne.

With T levels increased as much as reported, there should have been an HPTA shutdown with LH and FSH heading for zero.

"""Unfortunately, in the present study we did not determine muscle strength or mass; however, we did assess body composition and found that Novedex XT had no effect on fat-free mass (an indirect indicator of muscle mass) but was effective at producing a modest but significant 3.5% decrease in fat mass when compared with placebo."""

You cannot compare to a placebo group with N=8. If the "Novedex XT had no effect on fat-free mass" that is all that can be said. If the placebo group gained fat, so what?

"""The participant's diets and physical activity levels were not standardized, and participants were asked to not change their dietary habits during the course of the study."""

Nothing in the above statement implies that the unchanged dietary habits were equivalent.

GH levels were reduced.

The week zero E2 levels are insanely high. The active group has much higher E2 levels in Week 0. Note that, WTF, most of the active group E2 levels have standard deviations that are greater than the mean.


#5

thanks KS. I was hoping you would post. Yes I meant Novedex XT by Gaspari. That is what I took one year ago as PCT for a Winstrol (tabs) only cycle. It worked for me. At least pyschologically for awhile. Since then I have been on and off a pro hormone called Hemaguno. It is suppossed to be aromatase inhibitor. Whatever it was it left me with testosterone level around 250. I am 32 years old and that doesn't seem too good for a supposed healthy person who works out regualarly.

I have an appt with urologist day after tomorrow to get hear 1)What my level was this week. and 2) Hopefully get some help in the way of therapy. My symptoms are 1. no sex drive 2. bad mood overall just feel lazy and crummy/tired 3. Cannot put on muscle.
I'm not a fan of injecting myself, but I'm willing to do what I need to to feel right again. However after reading what you said in the TRT Protocol I have something to show my urologist. But he did have my test retaken in the morning and I think he is hoping they are higher so he can wash his hands of me. When he talked about possible things to help me, injection where on bottom of his list and when I told him I wanted to be aggressive about it, he really backed off. He gave me an exam and said I may have to go to an endocrinologist. He told me you get extreme highs and lows from injections and I would be on it for the rest of my life.

I understand all that, but i don't feel like having testosterone below 300 when I have a very active lifestyle. I don't know if he is being thorough, careful, or is clueless. Any input from you for my case in particular would really be appreciated. I will be willing to answer anything else I need to if it helps. I will explore my options for another doctor if it doesn't go well with him and I have an appt with PCP next week to just check up with him.


#6

Stop taking junk and use anastrozole in the future. At this point in time, if Hemaguno works, it can only take you in the wrong direction in the doctor game.

As you have read, TT is only part of the picture. Where is FT and how much estrogen is opposing it? Keep us posted!


#7

Little update. Got initial test results today myself. My prolactin levels are high at 33. Reference levels are between 3-19. My LH and FSH are both 5 which looks like normal.


#8

test results are in. Wow.

Total test was 765!
free test 166! but...Prolactin as stated earlier was 33.
I'm being refered to an endocrinologist.
My earlier testosterone test was 256 taken in the afternoon. I have taken no supplements or trt and they bumped up to 765 in the morining. My urologist said he definately thinks this is a pituatary issue, nothing to do with the testes. Any input? Maybe I should great a new post?


#9

At this point you need to review any drugs, Rx, OTC or supplements to see if any can be affecting E or prolactin.

Prolactin can be from a growth on the pituitary. The optic nerves run right by there. Any changes to your visual field can be symptoms. Any reduction to peripheral vision or other things?

Elevated prolactin typically means lower dopamine. That can create mood and depression type problems, low energy, loss of libido, perhaps gyno, lack of enjoyment or reward. These are symptoms.

A good doc will want to hear about any of the above symptoms.

Cabergoline/Dostinex would work well.

You might be getting a brain scan to image your pituitary.

Elevated prolactin is HPTA repressive. Your low and high TT readings leave me with doubts. LH should be higher in the early morning, but has a short half life and is highly variable. You can't read much into LH numbers. Make sure that you concerns with your nipples is presented to the endo in the context of the prolactin lab results - a consistent result.

Prolactin is released during orgasm. Best to avoid that prior to labs. If you are having sex with the nurse taking the blood samples, get the samples done first ;}

Prolactin can be higher when guys are bonding to babies and cuddling a lot.


#10

Thanks KS.
my lh was 5 and my fsh was 5. Both in morning.
I have a 4 year old daughter and a just turned 2 son so I'm cuddling babies a lot. I watch them frequently and my wife is in the still trying to wean my son. Almost done, he only does it at night. The children sleep in the same be with my wife and I. Its funny you brought that up. I'd like to elaborate on that more if you have some references/research that cites those findings.

my urologist knew nothing of my nipples. ive also had unusual chest pains i went to er for two weeks ago. they diagnosed me with pleurisy after all blood tests which i have. lymphocyte levels were minutely high. Also Bun whatever that is. Feels like someone is standing on my chest. on and off. my symptoms are all low t symptoms. most notable low sex drive, shiitty mood/feel crummy, and inability to put on muscle.

sometimes i get what feels like high sinus headache yes. difficult to concentrate like i used to. nowhere near as bad as chest stress. my vision is perfect.


#11

On this article http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=3085225 I found some information about winstrol. May be it can be useful for someone.