T Nation

Low T and High E2. What's Up?

Hello,
I’ve bee struggling to understand why my E2 can be so high, on low dose testosterone cream (TC). I’m currently taking (30 ML) 200MG / ML x2 daily. This works out to about 100 mg per application of TC, and as I understand it, that is a very low dose of TC.
A lot of TRT guys have been considering dropping their AI and many claim that their doing much better with out the AI. In fact, their claiming that they doing great! I thought I would give this new thinking a try. It’s recommended that you go up to 8 weeks without an AI and you should be feeling much better. In my case it’s been about 48 days and I feel like crap. My face is only mildly pink, but I have very low libido, significant ED, I gained about 3 inches of belly fat and I have BPH symptoms, which seem to get worse as I continue without any E2 control, Frankly, I’m much worst today than it was a few weeks ago.
As I mentioned, I’m experiencing BPH symptoms which means I’m getting up at night about once every 1.5 hours, which is out of character for me. My blood work has me at about 650 TT very low, and 78 E2. I asked about the very low TT and I was told that my TC was a very low dose, and that my 100mg dosing x2 daily was the lowest level of TC available and that most guys are on higher dosing. The doc choose this level of TC to avoid the possibility of E2 spiking since I have had previous high E2 problems while on T injections, .50mg E3D. I have had zero alcohol for the past 6 weeks, not using the gym lately, diet is ok no junk,and I’m 64, and about 12 lbs overweight, but that might be the high E2. My question is how can my E2 get so high, on such a low dose T cream. Is this more about me than it is TRT? It seems that I’m not clearing E2 efficiently perhaps my liver needs cleansing, or I should be looking else where?
Please share your thoughts.

Thanks

I really can’t comment on the cream, I know very little about it and have no experience. What I do have experience with is low T and elevated E2 which is not great. Have you considered increasing your TC dose to get your ratio looking better? In other words higher FT with a “high” E2? Low T and high E is as bad as high T with low E in my experience, the goal is balanced levels. Not sure If that’s any help to you but it would be my first step in your shoes.

You are taking 100mg/ml x 1ml x 2 per day That is not a low dose. What is your BF percentage? If your BF was high to begin with you will aromatize more on cream. There are men doing fine on 50mg/ml * 2 per day. Whoever told you 100 * 2 per day is ‘the lowest dose’ is a charlatan trying to sell you more testosterone. I would experiment with different application sites. Which part of your body is the leanest? Have you tried scrotal application? Or possibly switch to injections.

Hello Mfezdro,

Thanks for the prompt response. If I understand your explanation your saying that my low TC dosing could be causing my high E2, because I’m out of balance. So perhaps an increase in TC could help balance E2? Do I understand you point?

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Hello Blizzard,

I got my Information from a pharmacist at Empower. She further explained that it is a low dose because of the level of absorption and how long the TC last’s in someone’s system. Also, I think the TT level of 650 might support her opinion, since I was previously on injections at 50mg E3D of T-Cyp and my TT was 1300. Also I don’t know what BF means. The application site is a shaved scrotum, the most absorbable area, on the body. Please remember this is a compounded cream from Empower.

Thanks

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Are you on 100mg 2x a day or 100mg total per day?

200mg a day is a pretty healthy dose. 100mg a day is on the lower end but not crazy low imo.

At 150mg a day my total T was 1500+ peak and 70 something e2 if I remember correctly.

When were labs taken compared to your last application?

Thanks for the response. I’m just trying to get info on the E2 side of things. Regardless of whether I was on injections, as low as 100mg weekly of as high as 70mg E3d or T cream I’m having very high E2 scores. I’m not going back through the piles of labs, but whatever it’s worth my TT was always around 1300 until the cream, and E2 was always 75-78 and FT was about 34. My question is regardless of what the other numbers have been, my E2 is too high and I’m trying to find out if there is more going on than just TRT. After all many many guys are going zero AI with higher T dosing and doing great. Assume for a moment that all TRT numbers are in line and a guy is at 78 E2 what would you opinion be then?

That’s what I’m trying to learn

Thanks

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@Thomtst BF = Bodyfat. And to confirm you are doing twice daily T cream? How many clicks per day? Your E2 number is the same from when you were doing shots but the Total T number has dropped in half? That seems strange. The pressing issue is the symptoms. The symptoms dictate to lower dose but your total T isn’t that high. Why not switch back to shots?

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Hey Bliz,

We’re on the same page there, absolutely going back to shots. I just got on the TC because the doc said that I would have a lower E2 since TC won’t spike E2 like the injection can. Although, I inject sub-Q so I’m not sure his thinking is valid. Anyway, the TC was just an experiment that failed. Like I mentioned my E2 is to high without an AI. So I was wondering if there was something else going on. Just before I went to the TC I drew labs on 50mg E3D which I consider my sweet spot, with TT at 1300 and FT at 34 but that damm E2 was at 78. I kind of understand that the TC numbers are screwy, but the injections are the same low dose medium dose or high dose all at 70ish after 60 days. If I can’t get a working solution I guess I can control E2 with natural AI’s like Nettle Root , DIM and several others.

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Not necessarily causing it and I don’t have the knowledge to explain it should that be the case. What I do know from personal experience is that low T with high E is a problem and you feel the full force of that. So possibly increasing the T and giving your body time to balance itself may help. Bear in mind your levels will be all over the place while you try achieve this.
Also I have no idea if you are taking a low, average or high dose of TC. I am not experienced in it, sorry I don’t think thats very helpful.

I don’t think your E is too high, I think your T is too low. In other words you’re not in a balanced ratio. Just my opinion… If you remain at your current T level, you’ll need to look into managing E through supplements like zinc. Whether this is temporary or it will rebound is beyond me.

The reference ranges are 264-916 ng/dL, how did you come to the conclusion Total T at 650 ng/dL is very low?

You aromatase more than the next guy, you can’t expect everyone to aromatase the same.

This has more to do with genetics.

If I had my Total T in the 600’s, I would have an E2 in the 70’s (31% body fat). There are two ways to lower your E2, decrease your TRT dosage and inject frequently or use an AI.

The thyroid supports the liver in helping to clear excess estrogen.

This is why transdermal testosterone application is not recommended. Most aromatize way too much to estradiol and DHT. Gyno, fat gain, hairloss are much more likely to occur on test. cream. I would switch to Test. Cyp. 50mg twice per week, no AI. HCG 250IU twice per week.

So if I’m dosing to low on T I can get high E2 as a result of being out of balance? If that’s right where does the higher E2 come from?

My Lord, :blush:

I say it’s low based on my previous T Cyp levels at 50mg E3D prior to this T cream I’ve been taking recently. My TT scores over 7 years were always between 1100-1300.

You aromatase more than the next guy, you can’t expect everyone to aromatase the same.

I realize that. But, I was thinking that working out might lower my lowering BF, and general diet choices like increasing cruciferous vegetables. Things that I cans do or not do.

If I had my Total T in the 600’s, I would have an E2 in the 70’s (31% body fat). There are two ways to lower your E2, decrease your TRT dosage and inject frequently or use an AI.

To reiterate I would think that gym and diet could reduce E2. Perhaps lower a 70 ish score to a 60ish score?

Thanks for the input!

Hello Phoenix,

Sounds right but I had the same experience while on T Cyp 50mg E3D. for about 7 years. But, since you mention it, I will be dumping the cream, for many other reasons.

Thanks

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Hey Lord,

Do you think if I gave more support to the liver, that would help lower E2? I’m thinking liver cleanse, iodine maybe some glutathione ….

Without reading too carefully through all of the posts…
It would indicate that you have a lot of aromatase enzyme in the scrotum, which is not a fat issue, it’s just how you are. Injected T doesn’t get to that area because there is a blood barrier that prevents it getting there. Rubbing cream directly on it bypasses the barrier. 78 would not be a high E2 for 1300, it would be normal. Both would be out of range high. Stop rubbing T on your junk and your body will balance itself out.

Hey Hard,

Thanks. A lot of what you say makes sense. Although, I believe for me 78 is high based on the symptoms I get, which were probably buried in the posts. The worse is BPH, which I never have when is E2 is around mid to high 50’s. With E2 around 78 I ending getting up every 1.5 hours during the night, to take a leak. This this doesn’t happen after I get E2 lower. That’s one reason I’m trying to figure this E2 business out.

Thanks

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I found T values decreasing in 2018, in early 2019 I became iron deficient and ever since correcting the iron deficiency and restarting TRT, I find I’m getting significantly higher Total T values that has forced me to make some changes to my protocol by reducing the dosage significantly.