T Nation

Low Libido?


#1

Hey guys first I'll give some stats so I don't get flamed. Haha

I am 22 years old, this is my first cycle consisting of 500 mgs of test a week along with 12.5mgs of aromasin a day. The aromasin is from a respected research chem site so I am almost positive it is legit. I am also positive the test is not bunk it is norma amps from a trusted supplier from a different website.

I have previously done a short 3 week cycle of superdrol and absolutely hated because of the sides, so I decided on real AAS not bullshit prohormones. I did a solid nolva PCT for the superdrol of 40/40/30/20 and experienced no libido problems afterwards. I was 195 pounds and 7 weeks into my test cycle I am approximately 210 probably at nearly the same bodyfat.

My diet and workout plan are sound and dialed in, consisting of a carb cycling plan and a body part split. I get around 8-10 hours of sleep a night. The only stress in my life is from my girlfriend recently because of my lack of an erection lol.

So I am curious as to why my sex drive has dropped to next to nothing. I am thinking my test/estrogen ratio is out of whack causing the ED. This would mean I should up the aromasin dosage, correct? I do not feel bloated nor have I developed gyno symptoms so I'm not sure it's estrogen. Any thoughts?

I also have started dosing pramipexole at .25mg for the past 2 days. I have researched and have found it is meant to increase libido as a dopamine agonist. However, I am not sure this is a good decision but sadly I am desperate. Please help lol I need to keep the nympho satisfied haha.

P.S. Brook be nice please haha. I think you are the most intelligent and most well respected member on this board (along with Cortes, BBB, and Dynamo). All of your posts are informative and accurate. Ok enough of brown nosing and gimmie a damn answer!! haha...please.


#2

I use aromasin along side nolvadex during my PCT.

Aromasin is a Steroidal suicide aromatase inhibitor, very different from arimidex, a Competitive Non-Steroidal Aromatase Inhibitor. This mean that adex prevents most (~70%) testosterone from converting to estrogen, while aromasin is near complete inhibition. It drops estrogen levels extremely low when used, which is good when at the conclusion of a cycle where there is a possibility of a ‘rebound’ so to speak. But extremely low estro is just as bad as estro being too high, the body needs estrogen for gaining muscle as well as many other normal body functions, including erections. Achy joints are another common sign of too low of estro.

I experienced this as well, I was running the standard nolva 40/40/20/20/20, along with 20mg/day of aromasin. My sex drive was gone after about 6 days, and my GF was pissed when I wasn’t up…Dropping my dose to 10mg E3D ended this problem within the week. Sex drive back, accompanied by errections…everone was happy…lol. I know it was the aromasin because I used only Test and Dbol on cycle, and never had post cycle ED before with this stack…ever. I would recommend saving the aromasin for PCT maybe, and getting adex to use while on cycle. I’m sure your research source has it too. Dose adex at .25mg EOD, more or less, everyone is different.

If you have true test, which it sounds like you do, the pramipexole is not neccessary at all. Test is not going to cause any progestin problems, so hold on to that for when you need it (deca, tren, npp cycles possibly).

EDIT


#3

The estrogen from testosterone WILL increase prolactin, but this isn’t in direct need of a Dopamine Agonist as you can control the Estrogen easily (something that is not as easily solved with the 19-Nor’s). Anyway, it won’t hurt to use it.

I would try 25mg of Aromasin a day… see how that fares after a week. I am willing to bet it is a matter of estrogen being too high - AFAIK that is a relatively low dose of that particular AI.

If you do go with the recommendation to use Anastrazole, then i would dose it from 0.25mg every day, as there are not many who with 500mg of Test’rone find that half that dose is enough. My mate WHB once said it would be an AI over-responder that would use that amount on a cycle, and i would agree - based on anecdotal experience.

I personally think your AI dose is too low rather than too high, but it could be either - you honestly either need a simple, cheap saliva test to check Estradiol levels or just to play with the AI doses - the latter is the most common method but the most difficult, least effective and time consuming/stressful.

JMO


#4

[quote] Brook wrote:
The estrogen from testosterone WILL increase prolactin, but this isn’t in direct need of a Dopamine Agonist as you can control the Estrogen easily (something that is not as easily solved with the 19-Nor’s). Anyway, it won’t hurt to use it.

I would try 25mg of Aromasin a day… see how that fares after a week. I am willing to bet it is a matter of estrogen being too high - AFAIK that is a relatively low dose of that particular AI.

If you do go with the recommendation to use Anastrazole, then i would dose it from 0.25mg every day, as there are not many who with 500mg of Test’rone find that half that dose is enough. My mate WHB once said it would be an AI over-responder that would use that amount on a cycle, and i would agree - based on anecdotal experience.

I personally think your AI dose is too low rather than too high, but it could be either - you honestly either need a simple, cheap saliva test to check Estradiol levels or just to play with the AI doses - the latter is the most common method but the most difficult, least effective and time consuming/stressful.

JMO[/quote]

be careful with the cheap estradiol tests…unless they specify ultra sensitive assay for males you get basically useless information. like brook said could be high or low, but for me i have seen overuse of ancillaries to be a much more common problem than underuse, besides it is much easier to drop it completely (aromasin) and see what happens. Taking nothing is a given fact (meaning 0 equals 0 always). manipulating the dose you still have to be concerned about is it dosed correctly to begin with? I truly believe the over use of anti-estrogens inhibits the growth potential of alot of otherwise good cycles. I almost never used anything utilizing doese of 1-2 grams of test per week. Never once had gyno issues, yeah obviously water retention but that goes away post cycle anyway. Anti-estrogen usage is much more prevalent on the internet boards than in real world bodybuilding circles. Pre-contest of course is a different story and they are loaded heavily and ask anyone who does it…sex drive goes to zero when you drop estrogen to zero.


#5

And for God’s sake people…quit manipulating dopamine in order to counteract libido issues…you are asking for a set of problems that you can not imagine.


#6

my overall point being i don’t think many people need any AI at all on only 500mg of test per week, and when they throw it in there they drive estrogen to nondetectable levels and typically overeact and do something crazy like increase the anti-estrogen or add some other compound. How about taking LESS drugs first and see whta that does? seems pretty simple


#7

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#8

don’t make me come over there


#9

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#10

Are there any other tell tale symptoms beside low libido?

Those that would indicate too high E2 and the need to increase AI dose:

  1. bloating (you already answered that)
  2. poor libido (already answered)
  3. overly emotional

Those that would indicate too low E2 and the need to decrease AI dose:

  1. achy joints (dryness)
  2. No bloating
  3. Grumpy morale
  4. Poor libido

#11

Dynamo you may be on to something. I am slightly higher bodyfat wise so it’s more difficult to see if I am actually bloated. I think the overly emotional applies though. I was watching John Q on tv the other day and a touching scene with denzel and his son happened and I caught myself tearing. I snapped out of it and just thought WTF what am I doing this is pathetic. So on Brook’s recommendation I am going to increase my aromasin dosage to 25mgs a day and see where that takes me.


#12

[quote]JackedinJersey wrote:
Dynamo you may be on to something. I am slightly higher bodyfat wise so it’s more difficult to see if I am actually bloated. I think the overly emotional applies though. I was watching John Q on tv the other day and a touching scene with denzel and his son happened and I caught myself tearing. I snapped out of it and just thought WTF what am I doing this is pathetic. So on Brook’s recommendation I am going to increase my aromasin dosage to 25mgs a day and see where that takes me.[/quote]

come on now we all teared up over that…didn’t we? umm nevermind


#13

Is there any nipple sensitivity? I forgot to mention that important symptom for too high E2. Don’t get me wrong, too high E2 can occur without nipple sensitivity, but often that symptom does accompany it.


#14

No, nothing going on with my nipples that’s why I’m skeptical of having high estrogen. I would think at higher bodyfat that nipple sensitivity would be the first sign. Maybe I’m just lucky and am not gyno prone lol.


#15

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Personally I never got on with aromasin. It seemed to have no AI effect on me.

I also do better on higher doses of arimidex than lower ones. 0.5mg ED even when only running 250iu HCG E3D keeps me dry and horny, lol, but without the dry painful joints that excessively low E would cause.

On 2G of test per week, even 1.5g adex per day was not enough, seemingly.

And much as I hate to naysay the brother of pain, I think that in cases of elevated prolactin, mildly increasing dopamine is a valid way to sort things out.

However I have not exactly been using this approach for long enough to asses lifetime effects, lol, though LEF does concur that selegeline offers genuine life extension benefits, which goes against likely negative longterm effects IMO.

BBB[/quote]

I have to agree with BBB. I ran my first cycle with no AI and the sixth week started getting the early symptoms of gyno (scratchy/sore nips). Three days of nolva took care of that. Second cycle I started out @.25adex and still had heavy bloat/didn’t feel right. Upped the dose to .75 ED and worked out fine.

Let me clarify my above statements. First off, I agree with morepain that if you are new to AAS then you don’t want to overdo it with the ancillaries. Starting off low and seeing where that lands you is much better IMO than starting off high because you’re scared of gyno. If you have proper ancillaries on hand, gyno should never be a worry (unless you are incredibly prone to it, in which case good luck). Also, I was using adex from a certain “one” research site and I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was underdosed. I won’t be going back to them anytime soon.

OP: AI’s are highly individual IMO and it’s probably going to take a few cycles to find out what is optimum for yourself.


#16

And then there are guys like me that when I did 500mg’s a week my E2 shot up to 105, and my life sucked!
I personally believe a little, and I mean a little prevention (adex) is worth trying before buying in to the story that “if you’re doing less than 500mg’s a week, you don’t need ancillaries”.
That statement in the wrong hands is potentially very dangerous…
Just my two cents.


#17

[quote]JackedinJersey wrote:
No, nothing going on with my nipples that’s why I’m skeptical of having high estrogen. I would think at higher bodyfat that nipple sensitivity would be the first sign. Maybe I’m just lucky and am not gyno prone lol.[/quote]

If there is no nipple sensitivity, I would go with Morepain’s suggestion and just not dose the aromasin for a couple of days and see if libido comes back. Be prepared to use Nolva or jump back on aromasin if nipples start to flare up. If this solves your libido issues, then restart aromasin on lower dose.


#18

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Is there any nipple sensitivity? I forgot to mention that important symptom for too high E2. Don’t get me wrong, too high E2 can occur without nipple sensitivity, but often that symptom does accompany it.[/quote]

I have enlargened mammory glands (ie. not just fatty tissue Gynecomastia) yet not had ‘nipple sensitivity’.

IMO/IME each ‘case’ needs to be dealt with on a totally individual basis and the posts or threads that attempt to give a set of rules for any given side effect action/reaction cause more problems than they solve.


#19

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
JackedinJersey wrote:
No, nothing going on with my nipples that’s why I’m skeptical of having high estrogen. I would think at higher bodyfat that nipple sensitivity would be the first sign. Maybe I’m just lucky and am not gyno prone lol.

If there is no nipple sensitivity, I would go with Morepain’s suggestion and just not dose the aromasin for a couple of days and see if libido comes back. Be prepared to use Nolva or jump back on aromasin if nipples start to flare up. If this solves your libido issues, then restart aromasin on lower dose.[/quote]

If he did choose to do this - what would be the reason he wouldn’t choose to replace the AI with a SERM? It would protect against gyno at least while allowing estrogen levels to rise.

It should be of note that IME of doing this, by the time the estrogen level has risen enough to be pro-libido, it has quickly passed that level and risen to a level that is not pro-libido.
This ends up being doubly confusing as neither AI not no AI works… surely suggesting it must be something else??!

No, i personally think that 12.5mg of Aromasin with 500mg or Test is not enough, rather than too much.

It is down to this poor poster now sadly, who no doubt is more confused now than before!

Use google to search online effective doses of Aromasin. I did and most articles (as opposed to posts) seem to suggest 25mg as a very effective dose during a cycle. Of course this is personal to you - and however you do it, getting a blood test is the best way to know.

From morepains advice on that, spend a bit more and get a ‘pin prick’ test.


#20

haha yeah I’m a little confused right now. I made an appointment with my doctor on Sunday so I’ll request a blood test while I am there. For dosing the aromasin I’m just going to play around with my dose until I hit the elusive “sweet spot.”