T Nation

Low Libido and E2

Several posters have commented that E2 levels should be no higher that 20 to 25. What is the scientific basis for this? I have tried doing some research on my own but have not had any luck in finding any information. I have previously had my E2 checked and had a level of 16.

However, this was a trough level as it was taken right before my Test Cyp injection. My Dr. prefers to check my Test levels at the trough and to get those in the normal range. I have BW on Tues. and then see the doc in 2 weeks and would like to be able to take her some information to help with talking her into an AI.

By the way, my peak test level is 847 on 200mg every 2 weeks. My libido however is at its worst for the first 4 to 5 days after a test injection and then gradually improves until a few days before the next shot. Despite the gradual improvement my libido is still too low.

Thanks for the help!

You’re probably never going to feel right with injections every two weeks. Your T levels will never be at a steady state that way. Discuss self-injections with your doctor and try injecting smaller doses every other day. Then have blood work done and see where your E level is at.

There are a bunch of threads on HRT injection frequency, and I don’t remember a single good outcome on weekly or bi-weekly injections. Every third day or every other day seems to be the most effective protocol.

Actually, I do self inject. I do plan on changing to at least weekly injections. If not EOD injections. I have experimented with my test dosages, even going as high as 500mg per week. No matter what dosage that I use my libido still sucks. It just seems to be at its best during the middle third of my current injection cycle.

I will also see about adding hcg 250 iu Eod.

[quote]cowpaddi wrote:
Actually, I do self inject. I do plan on changing to at least weekly injections. If not EOD injections. I have experimented with my test dosages, even going as high as 500mg per week. No matter what dosage that I use my libido still sucks. It just seems to be at its best during the middle third of my current injection cycle.

I will also see about adding hcg 250 iu Eod. [/quote]

If you had increased libido for a while after starting TRT, then lost it, then E levels are probably the cause.

Getting E into the 20-25 range is a QOL issue that many docs seem to ignore. The basis is the reduced brain fog, increased energy and increased libido that guys report. I that is too low will decrease libido and create CV (heart arteries) risks.

Get on frequent injections. When you are spiking and crashing, you cannot evaluate the effects of any changes as you do not have a stable reference point.

I found that on weekly injections that the hole before my next injection was longer and longer until it was 7 days and the injection no longer had any lift. That is what E can do for you. And when you injected very large amounts with no improvement, that sounds like E too.

[quote]KSman wrote:
cowpaddi wrote:
Actually, I do self inject. I do plan on changing to at least weekly injections. If not EOD injections. I have experimented with my test dosages, even going as high as 500mg per week. No matter what dosage that I use my libido still sucks. It just seems to be at its best during the middle third of my current injection cycle.

I will also see about adding hcg 250 iu Eod.

If you had increased libido for a while after starting TRT, then lost it, then E levels are probably the cause.

Getting E into the 20-25 range is a QOL issue that many docs seem to ignore. The basis is the reduced brain fog, increased energy and increased libido that guys report. I that is too low will decrease libido and create CV (heart arteries) risks.

Get on frequent injections. When you are spiking and crashing, you cannot evaluate the effects of any changes as you do not have a stable reference point.

I found that on weekly injections that the hole before my next injection was longer and longer until it was 7 days and the injection no longer had any lift. That is what E can do for you. And when you injected very large amounts with no improvement, that sounds like E too.[/quote]

what if your E is at normal levels and your test is very low?

[quote]Nick M wrote:
You’re probably never going to feel right with injections every two weeks. Your T levels will never be at a steady state that way. Discuss self-injections with your doctor and try injecting smaller doses every other day. Then have blood work done and see where your E level is at.

There are a bunch of threads on HRT injection frequency, and I don’t remember a single good outcome on weekly or bi-weekly injections. Every third day or every other day seems to be the most effective protocol.[/quote]

why dont people use the daily test creams? Are they ineffective?

[quote]mark_nimda wrote:

what if your E is at normal levels and your test is very low?

[/quote]

Your E is made from T. So if T is low, E is not high unless one is fat. Fat tissue is where most T–>E aromatization takes place. So more fat can mean more E. For those who are getting an ‘apple’ belly their T can be very low and they can have more E than their peri or post menopausal wives.

How you feel T wise depends on the ratio of T:E. E competes with the T to occupy T receptors. The E fouls up those receptors and ruins the potential of what T you do have. Example: (me for one), my T levels were around 900-1000 on TRT+HCG. My libido was suffering and lack of mental clarity and energy. Then started AI and everything much improved. The improvements were from the lower E while the T+HCG were constant.

[quote]mark_nimda wrote:

why dont people use the daily test creams? Are they ineffective?

[/quote]

They can be effective, but much more costly than injections. Not all have insurance for these things. Some insurance explicitly states no hormone replacement (except insulin in some cases).

A 10ml vial of 200mg/ml test cyp costs $42 at Sam’s Club (usa) with a Business Membership, around $100 at Walgreen’s. At 100mg/wk, that will last 20 weeks. So the cost is $2.10 to $5 per week. Syringes are $18/100 for larger ones and $12/100 for insulin syringes at Sam’s.

Injected is 100% delivery. Transdermals are %10 absorbed at best. So you are paying for 10 times more test relative to injected.

If transdermals work for you and the costs are not an issue, then that is perfect. Not that many will want to be on HCG so that their testes do not shrink/ache or to stay fertile. If you have to inject HCG, then using transdermals just to avoid injections does not make so much sense.

We see guys here who are not doing well on transdermals and find that injections are effective and agreeable.

[quote]KSman wrote:
mark_nimda wrote:

what if your E is at normal levels and your test is very low?

The E fouls up those receptors and ruins the potential of what T you do have. Example: (me for one), my T levels were around 900-1000 on TRT+HCG. My libido was suffering and lack of mental clarity and energy. Then started AI and everything much improved. The improvements were from the lower E while the T+HCG were constant. [/quote]

ah, I see, that makes alot of sense.

Cowpaddi,
Remember that the symptoms of low E2 are similar to that of high E2 (except for gyno.). With an E2 of 16, it may be too damn low (also a cause for low libido). Have your doc check it again. If its still in the teens, you may want to consider decreasing the dose of test. & adding in hCG. This should keep you test. in the high end of normal range and also raise your E2. Like I said, your next bloodwork will determine where you go from here.

Mike

[quote]mikandrea wrote:
& adding in hCG. This should keep you test. in the high end of normal range and also raise your E2.
Mike[/quote]

There is some aromatization of T in the testes themselves. When you realize that the concentration of T inside the testes is around 100 times greater than serum levels, you can see that there is a lot of fuel for that to happen. The amount of E produced that way is not major. So HCG 250iu SQ EOD would restore ‘normal non age damaged testes’ to one’s normal baseline production. So E should not be a major issue (not abnormal). When HCG doses are very high and the testes are overstimulated, then E levels may rise. High amounts of HCG will cause the testes to down regulate the LH receptors, which ends up been a step backwards. You will read where body builders in PCT will inject a couple of thousand units at once. That is insane. The understanding is not widely known yet. And with practices change slowly.

Mikandrea,

Actually, that E2 level of 16 was when my test levels were at there lowest. My total T at the time was 256. I was due for a test injection later that day.
Also, I do plan on having my E2 rechecked. That will be done Tues. about 36 hrs. after my test injection. I was asking for information to in regard to keeping E2 in the 18-25 range in case my E2 comes out higher than that range.

I also understand the need to use shorter injection cycles and plan on switching to them. I just need to get the right size needles first. I have 26 ga. 3/8 inch needles that I use for my allergy shots. However, i do not know if those are long enough. While I am fat, almost all of my fat is in my belly. I think I will try the needles that I have after I have my blood work done on Tues. If they do not work well I will get the 29ga. 1/2 inch that Ksman recommends.

[quote]cowpaddi wrote:
Mikandrea,

Actually, that E2 level of 16 was when my test levels were at there lowest. My total T at the time was 256. I was due for a test injection later that day.
Also, I do plan on having my E2 rechecked. That will be done Tues. about 36 hrs. after my test injection. I was asking for information to in regard to keeping E2 in the 18-25 range in case my E2 comes out higher than that range.

I also understand the need to use shorter injection cycles and plan on switching to them. I just need to get the right size needles first. I have 26 ga. 3/8 inch needles that I use for my allergy shots. However, i do not know if those are long enough. While I am fat, almost all of my fat is in my belly. I think I will try the needles that I have after I have my blood work done on Tues. If they do not work well I will get the 29ga. 1/2 inch that Ksman recommends.
[/quote]

Pinch your skin on your thigh and take a tape measure to it. Divide by 2 and you have a fair approx. of your skin thickness. I came in under 1/2". If you use the side of your leg you may well be @ 3/8". IOW you may be able to use the 1/2". I have 1" but next time I think I’ll go with 1/2".