T Nation

Low Free T and High SHGB


#1

hi Guys
iwrite her my first post,but i read her a long time .
I
m a Sporty guy,to love do sport.
i train Bodybuilding,fitness,kickboxing,thaiboxing and boxing in the last 24 years
the last 5-6 years only thai/boxing and little fitness

i have all time in the last 7-9 years the same symptoms.
-low energy,low motivation,bad recovery after Training days(need 3-4 day to recovery),memory problems,brain fog...,can`t grow body gain,feel cold

i do a lot of blood test and other test in the last 3-4 years..
-dr finde a pituary micro adenoma,but Dr.says its by nothing that give my problems..
-helicopacter p.(gastritis)

-and all time low lh acth,low testosterone and high SHGB

my diet,syplements and lifestyl whas very ok.
a work long time as a certificate Personal coach,and have a good knowhow about Helaty lifstyle..
but nothing helps

try last year chlomid/chlomifen and its work good for sperm quality(girlfriend whas pregnet now in 8 month)..my lh and shgb ,free test and e2 goes up in this time,but i dont fell good on it
-i have a acth test,whats show my adrenal glads work fine
-i have a insuline stress test,whats shows my pituitary work fine
thats the reason,why my Dr.say my problem comes from my Hypothalamus.

now i try to find a way to have more energy for life,sport and my work.
mayby somone of you have a idea whats whas the problem in my system.
i try all supplemts,all diet..nothing help

her more about me:
-age: 38
-height: 5'10.5"
-weight: 170 lbs
-facial hair grows normal.,must shave after 2-3 days.,have a lot of body and back hair.
-have morning wood
my blood test:
lh 2,7 (ref 2-12) low,sometimes its only 1,7
e2 19 (ref 11-44)
testosterone 4,8 (ref 2.3-9,1)
shgb 56 (ref 18-55)
free testosterone 0,89 (ref 1,1-3,1)
dheas 260 (ref 88-420)
cortisol 6 (ref 4,3-20)
igf 212 (110-240)
Dihydrotestosteron 430 (250-1000)
acth 8 (ref 10-60)low

have a stress test to check my pituitary(all fine)
acth goes from 7pg to 178pg/ml its 25 time more
cortisol from 8,7 to 30 uq/dl its 3x more
hgh/sth go from 1,32 ng/ml to 17,77
tsh,ft3+ft4 whas ok

thanks for help :slightly_smiling:


#2

Please post thyroid labs with ranges.
“OK” is not good information, need numbers

TSH should be close to 1.0, the lab range is very misleading
T3, T4, fT3, fT4 should be mid-range or a bit higher.

Do you use iodized salt? - history
Eat a lot of sea food?
Feeling cold easily suggests low thyroid function.

SHBG is high relative to E2=19

Where are you located? This affects your options and what we can suggest.

Labs:
TT
FT
E2
LH/FSH [FSH is important]
prolactin [is micro adenoma prolactin secreting?]
CBC
hematocrit
AST/ALT
fasting cholesterol
fasting glucose
PSA
AM cortisol, do at 8 AM

Your high SHBG is lowering your FT.

Cortisol=6 seems low. Better if 10 or better at 8AM
Low cortisol can reduce your energy
Lower thyroid levels can reduce your energy

Clomid makes some guys feel bad. Nolvadex get the job done and does not have that side effect.
What was the dose of clomid and for how long?

Blows to the head can damage the pituitary and that seems like a problem for you.

Please read these stickies:

  • advice for new guys
  • protocol for injection
  • thyroid basics

Please check your oral body temperatures, as suggested in the thyroid basics sticky, to evaluate your overall thyroid function.

Please do not miss any points above.


#3

hi
hi thank you for you anser and time.
i write in the next posting all what you need.
i live in europa,austria…
the dr.check my pituitary whit all test and say my ist work fine,but only after stimulation,my problem whas the hypothalamus and they can´t do noting more :frowning:
i us a special headgear for boxing but i dont do sparring now and save my head…


#4

https://books.google.com/books?id=7v7g5XoCQQwC&pg=PA817&lpg=PA817&dq=hypothyroidism+austria+iodine+deficiency&source=bl&ots=cNA9BQ4Vku&sig=bv-Ng-cryURxbgngiPKuWpbkSzM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwA2oVChMIzcintOeXyQIVSaeICh0SVApg#v=onepage&q=hypothyroidism%20austria%20iodine%20deficiency&f=false

Do you use iodized salt? - history
Do you use iodized salt? - history
Do you use iodized salt? - history


#5

i us ion salt and have ion in my multivitamin/mineral supplements
her my answering,sorry for not perfect englisch :slight_smile:

Please post thyroid labs with ranges. 
“OK” is not good information, need numbersÃ?Â

TSH should be close to 1.0, the lab range is very misleading� 
T3, T4, fT3, fT4 should be mid-range or a bit higher.Ã?Â

Answer:
tsh 1,40mU/l (ref 0,35-3,5) in the middle
FT4 18,8 pmol/l(ref 10,3-21,9) in the middle
ft3 4,81 pmol/l(ref 2,50-6,70) in the middle

Do you use iodized salt? - history

answer:
yes and in my mulit vitamin/mineral supplements i have 150uq of iod

Eat a lot of sea food?
answer:
2-3x in week sushi and 1 x in week fish

Feeling cold easily suggests low thyroid function. 
answer:
I now,but i told this every year my dr/hospital and all test shows its all right .,i do a ultra scan ,and its all right
i check all my organs whit ultra scan,all whas fine

SHBG is high relative to E2=19 
answer:
i now,but why??
last year i have the e2 high in the range of 40-50 but i use chlomid/chlomifen
after going of,the e2 going very slow down.
But shgb whas in the last 2-3 years all time in the range of 42-56(on chlomid its go up to 76!)

Where are you located? This affects your options and what we can suggest.Â

Labs  
TT: 4,49 ng.(ref3-8,3)sometimes 3,5/sometimes 6,1!
FT :5,9 ng/l (ref 8,9-42,5) all last 2-3 years under the range
E2: 19 pg/ml(11-44)2014 i have it in the rang of 39-44 but 2015 all time 19-22
LH/FSH [FSH is important]:lh 2,75 (ref 2-12)/FSH 2,6 (ref 1,4-12,8)
9.2015 i have a "lh response to gnrh test"
after injektion of gnhr 30min
lh 32.5
fsh 6.0
after injektion of gnhr 60min
lh 24,2
fsh 6,5
after injektion gnhr 90min
lh 17,7
fhs 5,9

Dr.in hospital says this test shows when gnhr comes to the pituitary it works fine,thats mean my Hypothalamus whas not working god,and he can do nothing

prolactin [is micro adenoma prolactin secreting?]
answer:
no my prolactin whas 2,4(ref2,5-17.0) low production

CBC:
answer:
whit blood cells:5,6 G/l (4-10,0
red blood cells:4,51 (4,4-5,90)
hematocrit� 0,392 (0,400-520)
hemoglobin: 142 g/l (130-177)
AST/ALT�  a:
got(ast)14 u/l (ref 10-50)
gpt(alt)15u/l(ref 10-50)

fasting cholesterol:
answer:
ihave only normal cholesterol test,but its very fine:
cholesterol:140mg/dl (ref 130-200)
hdl-chersterol 51/dl
ldl.choresterol 85 mg/dl
triglyceride 51 mg/dl (40-150)

fasting glucose
answer:
i dont have a special test for Glucose testing ,only in the morning but i test my glucose level 1 week long on the morning,by day,afternoon,in the night and after eating.
All range at from 71(morning) to 130(after eating)

PSA :0,69 (ref 0-4,0)

AM cortisol, do at 8 AM
answer:
last time it whas 6,3
but normaly i have 8-10 on 8 a.m

i now vitamin c,aspirin decreased cortisol level

What was the dose of clomid and for how long?Â

answer:
I take chlomid
2014 3week 25 mg ed then reduce on eod
2015 3 x 2weeks 12,mg eod
its rise up my testo level,my free testo level,my shgb,my e2,my lh
my sperm quali going up from 11 mil/ml to 82!mil/ml
after this last cycle my girlfriend whas by pregnant

Blows to the head can damage the pituitary and that seems like a problem for you.
answer:
Im don’t go any more to hard sparing,but i don’t get much hit on the head and I use special headgear
but the symptoms what I have whas starting long time before I train thaiboxing or boxing.

Please read these stickies:Ã?Â

  • advice for new guysÃ?Â
  • protocol for injectionÃ?Â
  • thyroid basicsÃ?Â

Please check your oral body temperatures, as suggested in the thyroid basics sticky, to evaluate your overall thyroid function. 
answer:
Today I have 98,42 f(39,9 Celsisu europe)

Please do not miss any points above. 
age�  38
-height�  5,10
-waist�  L (48/50)
-weight�  170
-describe body and facial hair :
body hair of all places,back soo mutch,fecial hair,but grown not sooo fast
-describe where you carry fat and how changed :
only by the hips ,a little

-health conditions, symptoms [history]:

+all time have problems whit coold felling
+all time have problem to gain weight
+night sweating after train
+muscle pain,bad recovery after train all my life(not when us roids)
+lost fast my condition and strength when not in train 2 weeks
+low energy,low motivation,brain fog
+have gastritis(helicopater p)
+have chronical prostatitis(not all time pain)

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever:

20 years ago :dianabol,primabolan
17 years ago :laurabolin,testosterone
14-12 years ago:lauraboline/deca,testosterone,boldone,propecia

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets] 
answer:
in my 24 years sport time(whit break) I try/us all possible diet
low carb,low fat,Atkins,paleo,samuraj and ,and …
now I eat normal,without gluten!sugar(only fruits and chocolate)

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
answer:
all my life I have problem whit training.
must guys train hard 5-6 time I can do it only 2-3 time becose my recovery whas all time bad,and feel tired on the next 2-3 days.
That whas the reason why I us roids in early young years.
Now I train 2x in week thaiboxing or boxing 75-90 min and 1x Hiit(circle) all body maximum 30 min
but now when im older I fell by more tired
guys go to thaiboxing or gym 3-5 time and have 0 problems,but its totally normal guys!on the 30-40 thy years

-testes ache, ever, with a fever?no

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
answer:
in the last 2-3 weeks I have morning woods.,but some weeks nothing
I don`t have problem whit erection,but my libido is low.

its sooo much information i hope its not TOO much for reading

i now it`s a story for Dr.House
but i now on the point ,after try 4 years to by pregnant whit my girlfriend,that i can us trt or hrt.
i love sport and need energy for my life,children and,and…but in this moments i hope i have energy for 1 training session and by afraid how long i must recovery after it 2-4 days!


#6

hematocrit� 0,392 (0,400-520)
This seems too low. At this point I want to see an occult blood test to detect if any blood in your shit/poop. Its a simple test. If positive you have a gastrointestinal bleed. You eat gluten free. Do you have problem with gluten?

Your thyroid status seems good. Feeling cold not explained.

Recovery after training: Do you get lots of protein? Have you tried protein drinks before and after training?

Your total cholesterol is too low. 180 is ideal, levels below 160 are associated with increased all-cause mortality. Cholesterol is the foundation for creating pregnenolone, DHEA, T, E1,2,3, progesterone, cortisol and vit-D3.

Why reduce cortisol? Typically wanting to see above 10 a AM cortisol.

Your LH/FSH is low. Your pituitary can work, but hypothalamus is not working right.
Why not stay on low dose clomid.

You need increased T levels to drive down SHBG.
Your FT and bio-T levels are low and you are estrogen dominant.
Lower E and higher T decreases SHBG.
Most of your TT is T+SHBG which is not bio-available.

See if you can do low dose clomid and use some anastrozole to keep near E2=22pg/ml. Then your SHBG may decrease. That could take some time. As SHBG decreases, FT will increase and E2 change again.

Did your problem start Finasteride (Propecia)? It sometime breaks men’s hormones.

How did you feel with clomid? Bad mood?


#7

Hi
a
2013-2015 i have all time problems whit high SHGB and Low Free T.

Clomid:
All time when i use it my shgb go very high!
The best is last time,2weeks after going off whit chlomid my LH whas falling to 1.5!
testo to 3.5
but shgb whas 65
dont understand it.
and a dont feel good on it.
its help my only for sperm quali.
no restart or somthing like it :frowning: .
About trainig/protein:
The training whas all time good,only after beginns the problem whit muscle pain.
but on the train i have power.
i try all high protein whit carbs.whitout carbs after and before.
long time ago i work as a personal coach (fitness and bb)
Next month i do a new certificate about diet,supps …
i try all posible things :frowning:

My dr.say mayby my roid use destroy the good working of my hypothalamus?!

Propecia:
A us it 2 years
1 year whit testosterone and 1 when i whas by off.
Its by 10 years ego.
i feel not good on it.
have panic attack.no energy no libido.

Whats now?
I dont think chlomid can help my,becose i us it dont feel good on it.
my acth whas low all time,thats why my cortisol whas low and dhea not too high to.
my lh whas low,thats why my tt whas in the middle.
My e2 whas good but SHGB whas all time high :-(.

Mayby try trt 100mg e7d?
Hcg 100 i.e ed?
But all things block my pit.working.

You see.whit my blood levels its normal i have this symptoms.
not posible to normal train.

Story for dr.house :slight_smile: i know

after 2 years test i know my hypthalamus whas the problem…
hmm but whats now…block my pituitary whit trt oder hcg?
try chlomid ,whast rise my shgb up

the best whas in the morning i have a good morning wood.,but low energy and little muscle pain.


#8

Some guys feel like shit on clomid. Most feel OK.
Nolvadex works as well as clomid. You could try 10mg EOD.

When you take a SERM and E2 gets high and stop taking the SERM suddenly, the E2 levels shutdown your HPTA. See the HPTA restart thread that is linked in the advice for new guys sticky.

See if you can do low dose Nolvadex and use some anastrozole to keep near E2=22pg/ml. Then your SHBG may decrease. That could take some time. As SHBG decreases, FT will increase and E2 change again.

“”“
Propecia:
A us it 2 years
1 year whit testosterone and 1 when i whas by off.
Its by 10 years ego.
i feel not good on it.
have panic attack.no energy no libido.
”""
You may have been damaged by Propecia. Does the time line make any sense?

If this can’t be fixed, get on TRT as suggested in the stickies.
Don’t worry about blocking your HPTA, it does not work now.
100mg T cypionate or enanthate per week, inject 50mg twice a week
250iu hCG EOD, not need for ED
0.5mg anastrozole at time of injection then adjust based on labs as per stickies.

If you do TRT your quality of life should be greatly improved in a few weeks.


#9

hi
first i will thank you,for time to read about my problems :slight_smile:

ok step by step
"When you take a SERM and E2 gets high and stop taking the SERM suddenly, the E2 levels shutdown your HPTA. See the HPTA restart thread that is linked in the advice for new guys sticky"

wow its a crazy information!
now i have a new view on my lab ranges /levels!
i take clomid to 24.6.15 and do lab test on 3.7.15
+the lh level whas by 1,5!hpta dont work god
+the shgb 62!
+e2 whas ok by 22
+tt whas 3,5 !low

becos every time when i us clomid my e2 goes very high and my shgb too my HPTA going down after i"m going off…

hmm that’s hard stuff
but why don’t work after 2-3 months better? no restart or something…
fact is:
shgb going down from 76 to 56 and now is something by 44-51
but lh whats only little bit only higher 2,4

propecia :hmm yes i possible but in this time i`m 1 years on whit testosterone and take propecia after this time 1 year .
in this time my HPTA whas down+propecia…it whas not the best time in my life.
and i down now what whas worser for my :by off(whit down hpta) or propecia

restart HPTA:
sure i read it.
becose i know my shgb end e2 goes High and maybe the end effect whas not god for my.

believe my ,i thing every day about taking testosterone,but hoping maybe my HPTA can "restarting"whit HCG(after reading about restart)

i think i try you option for hcg
100 ie ed its ok or do 250 ie oed?(mayby low dose better becose my e2 going soo easy high?

a other question.
when i start try trt 50 mg eod t.e.,how fast its by a god time to going off when i don"t Fell better?
or how fast i must fell its by better or its dont help

possible scenario:
2-3 weeks testo e.,fell not better…going off …and then starting clomid?(blocks double my HPTA 1.whit testo 2 whit high e2 from chlomid) that by a bad situation for my then


#10

i start 4 days ago my test whit 100 i.e hcg ed .,
injection in the morning
in the moment feel nothing better…more tired on 3-5 p.m.,
not more libido,or something.
have on my legs ,muscle pain from Wednesday thaibox training ,today saturday i fell it too=recovery by worser or the same like whiteout hcg.
will not go up whit the dosis for the moment,think when my natural LH range is be 2-2,7 its low,that the 100 i.u ed must working?!


#11

a short update:
i feel tired on the hcg 100 i.u.
now im off
fell by bones.muscle after training session 5 days.
but have morning wood.dont understand it hmm
must shave facial hair all 3 days…


#12

to KSman…
hi what you thing about my experience whit hcg?tired too…

is it possible that my theory whas right ,must symptoms come from the low cortisol(acth)

i mean,when hcg dont work wor my?


#13

Many of your questions are not understandable…

We know that TRT can make some feel worse if there is something that does not allow their metabolism to support the increases that TRT creates. This can be from weak thyroid or adrenals. Perhaps something else in your case.

Cortisol:
repost lab result with lab range

Training may be damaging to adrenals while you are not feeling well.


#14

sorry for my englisch :frowning:
1.the question:
i use/try 1 week hcg 100 i.u.
but in this time i dont fell better.
no higher libido/no higher energy/motivation or better brain work.
only my eggs are bigger :slight_smile:
but by in this week tired and more…
its then mean my problem are not testosteron?100 i.u hcg ed whas more like my own production (lh 2.3 ref 1.8-12) normaly i must feel it better?!?


#15

HI Ted,

I am the same as you, I also used propecia. You said you have an adenoma on your pituritary gland. Perhaps this is causing your problem. You must rule out high progesterone, prolactin and growth hormone.

I have done a lot of testing and experements. Like you HCG does not help. T does not help. Lowering E does not help, progesterone does not help, cortisol does not help and so fourth.

The only thing I am looking at now is low growth hormone. If your growth hormone is very low testosterone will simply not work. SHBG may also be increased too.

We are in a unique situation and must work together on this one.

Please reply to me here. Have you done any growth hormone testing? IGF-1 is not good enough as this only detects deficiency in about 50 percent of adults.

If you can not get in contact with me here. Please add me to your facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/vinvan82

I know how you feel cause I am exactly the same.

Thanks


#16

hi vincent
i learn in the last 6 monts ,much more about hormons,supplement,diet but my body-hormon system too.

now i write what I know/learn

my situation:
1.in young years use roids,but mayby te adenoma on pituitary whas the reason for not soo much energy and recovery from early young years-thats why i begin us roids…
2.my adrenal whas going off-Burnout i thing 12 years ego

  1. all time,when i feel bad i try sooo much Supplements/hormons in the last 10 years and soo meany thing where my HPT axis going OFF…
    why ,becos the endycronical system whas sensitiv…
    when i use Tribuluss/tribulus stack/dhea/nettle root or chlomid my FSH/LH shots Up,my E2 shots Up,and the upper,upper values give the HPT axis the signal for going off

4.Shbg whas the hormon,what going very slowly down in the blood values

5.Evry supplemtes or Hormon what we take can give a reaction for other hormons…when testosterone going up,mayby lh/fsh going up=e2 going up=SHGB going up!
6.to see how good or bad HPT axis beginn to work you must leave all supplemts…no zma,no special vitamin complex,no testo booster…

7.vit d3 min 4000 i.u+ vit k2 75+vit a only is good for lower Shbg

8.reduce energy booster like coffein and all thinkg too destroy you pituitary-adrenals working

9.reduce high insensitivity hardcore train/workout !that can by lower you testo or destroy you pituitary-adrenal working
fpr 3 moths onli light train max 30 min 3x week

10.reduce gluten,bad food,reduce carbs,eat good Fat(avocados,coconut oil ;pork fat) look to have cholesterol(balanc LDh/HDL too) in the middle minimum! not too low you need it for good working of the hormones

11.when all other hormons like cortisol,dhea,acth,tsh(ft3+ft4+antibodies)lh,fsh,testosterone,ifg1whas after 3 monts in the middle or better but SHBG whas still high,check the liver and prostate!

12.when after 3 months try all this thing what i write,you HPT axis dont work fine the reason can by:
1a
.you use roids/hormons too long and you must wait longer like 3 monts.
normaly min 6 monts to 1 year
2a.
you dont do all what i write right
3a.
you have mayby problems whit thyroids;liver,bad eating(bad eating higer e2 and thats hihger SHBG)
4a.
you have a damage on you brain/pitatury/hypothalamus physically and thas the reason it cant work good
5a
not possible restart the system…then you can us only TRT or other hormons
6a.
Diabetes? do a sugar /insulin test,too see how sugar falling after 2 houres in blood

my blood level of testosterone whas now by 6,lh by 3,4 e2 by 31 thats mean my axis work but my shbg level is still high and i feel the difference to 2015 soo much!
its not the high level but better as 4 monts ago

i learn in the last 4 monts from the best trainer,read good books…try to have patience :slight_smile

i try now 3 x in week full train.,eat like worrior/paleo diet and drink max 1 coffe day.
us vitd3 4000-8000 daily.
have morning woods,and theoretical its inove for the 0815 simple guy :wink: but my goals ar higher i wait 1 month more,too see how my system work now totaly clear…

and dont use propecia/finasterid…its the biggest shit for men homones and brain…


#17

THanks for your message.

This is a very complex issue. Can we talk together about it? Are you on facebook? Can you add me? Thanks


#18

ask me here in this forum


#19

could you be more specific about how to take adex and nolva (ed \ eod \ e3od ) ?

-for how long
-dosage
-how to taper off

i havr high SHGB high e2 and low fsh with average lh
i have the lab test if needed .


#20

When you take hCG to activate LH receptors, or take a SERM to increase LH/FSH, there can be high T–>E2 inside the testes and some guys this is a bigger problem.

If you do not feel well, this may be because of other thyroid or adrenal imbalance.

I suggested Nolvadex dose November 15th. Please read again all of my posts.

Please check oral body temperatures again as explained in thyroid basics sticky.

When on a SERM, check TT, FT, E2, LH and FSH.
When on hCG, check TT, FT and E2

Still concerned with your low hematocrit and any possible problems with your guts and digestion that could lead to some blood loss.