T Nation

Low Dose Propionate Ester Injection Frequency?


#1

Hello all,

So I’m tapering off my cycle which was mainly Test E and Dbol. The cycle was good but a rollercoaster because of an inability to properly control oestrogen. Highs and lows of this hormone caused too many complications.
That said, I gained 20lbs of mass which I have still kept.

I am currently on the taper part, thinking I may stay on low dose Test P/Mast P, as my own test is not up to my standard.
Right now I am on:

20mg Test P/EOD
20mg Mast P/EOD
0.3mg Letro/EOD
250iu hCG/2x week

Last week I was injecting ED, this week I have started pinning EOD to drop the dose as it gets harder to measure it out for ED pins.

My question is this, can the move from ED to EOD make such an impact on my mood?
This morning I felt like ABSOLUTE shit which was the morning of my shot (last shot being tuesday). And by lunchtime today approx 3-4 hours after my shot my mood is great.
Could it be the tiny amounts im injecting causing levels to fall too low too fast?
I have no problem going back to ED shots.

SB


#2

if i were you , i would do some blood-test first
then decide the dose and injecting frequency


#3

Do not want to sound harsh but you are virtually pinning not even 20mg EOD ? 2x4 ? = 80mg ?100mg per week of test regardless of the esther its a waste truthfully and mast is a waste too, mast is a weak compound and the dosages you are taking are below natty levels as well you are just wasting juice if you feel anything then its probably just placebo. Obviously you want to pin ED that keeps blood stable EOD will create fluctuations however not everyone is the same, i had a buddy with 0 sex drive pinning tren a EOD once he switch to ED he was good.


#4

Could do but to look for what? I know I’m shut down obviously on 160mg/wk of exogenous hormones. Only Oestrogen but i think that’s in check. I’m coming off the letro too as 80mg/wk test doesn’t warrant the use of an ai IMO especially since I’m an overresponder to ai’s.

SB


#5

I hear you but I’m a believer in the lowest dose possible. If i can pin 50mg/wk test 50mg/wk mast and feel could why wouldn’t i? I’m going to go even lower and still how i feel. Going by prisoners original comments of >100mg/wk test being not totally suppressive, i want to be at such a low dose where I’m still producing a small amount of my own test alongside a little boost from exogenous test/dht. I think a combined blend of ~60mg test/mast shouldn’t suppress me totally.

SB


#6

But you’re already suppressed. What is your goal with this? Are you wanting to taper off or cruise?
Prisoner22 talked a lot of his taper, which I’m a fan of, but you seem to be talking about running a less than normal level cruise and expect benefits.


#7

I am suppressed yes. But as discussed by prisoner, once my aas levels drop below the 100mg/wk mark my natural test should recovering. So what i want to do is drop the aas level to such a dose which will only mildly suppress me but still allow a functioning HPTA. I remember prisoner saying that the hpta will pick up the ‘slack’ once levels fall below a certain point.

The initial point of my post was the injection frequency. Switching from ED to EOD causing such huge mood fluctuations. I have now gone back to ED and its seems to have sorted things.

SB


#8

Glad ed is working better for you and it makes since.
As far as running a small amount and having your natural test fill in the difference- why? You aren’t going to be superphysiological with your levels and at best normal. For example: if you have a natural test level of, let’s say, 800 and you run 15mg of prop a day and it gives you 550 then in theory your natural test would pick up enough to get you back to 800. So you shoot 15mg a day for absolutely no difference than not taking anything.
Tell me where my thinking is flawed on what you’re doing.
Now as far as the masteron goes I could see a benefit with it, but it will slightly suppress you as well so you’d be giving up a little natural test for a little "masteron’ benefit. I think Proviron, ran without anything else, would probably get you what you wanted.
I’m not really sure what you are wanting from this, but good luck with it all.


#9

First off Happy New Year to everyone.

What I was trying to achieve with this was the smoothest transition off cycle. I am currently down to 35mg/wk Test P and 35mg/wk Mast P with 20mg Nolva/d. No more hCG.
I can definitely feel the drop in test levels, sometimes I feel as though my testes have regained some volume but at other times they dont feel as plump. Thinking to add in 25mg/d of clomid too and I will still taper off the Test P for another 2 weeks before completely dropping it. In regards to the masteron, I am unsure whether to completely drop it or not, I feel even at such a low dose it is helping somewhat. What are your thoughts? Switch to proviron? I want to run some sort of DHT compound long-term while avoiding too much suppression.

SB


#10

I’d keep the mast with the test at equal doses while you taper off and add the clomid now. Stop the masteron completely with the test, give it at least 6+ weeks and add it back or preferably Proviron if you want after you’ve recovered.

I just came off after a very long run to get my wife pregnant with a test/mast taper with nolvadex added with great results, basically a tapered pct.


#11

Thank you for your continued input. Much appreciated.

This is of interest to me. The fertility part, I am 25 and soon I will be wanting kids.
How long were you on for? And is that all you did, a test/mast taper alongside nolva and you got her pregnant?
No hCG?

I am off the test/mast now. I was doing 5mg each per day and just thought to drop it and see how it goes. Been on nolva 20mg/d for over a week too. Will report back if I crash. I should have clomid in a couple days.

SB


#12

Yes I used hcg until I was off. I’m a big big fan of hcg and have gotten blood done with it and without it with several different cycles.
If you plan on having kids later in life then be safe and responsible with your cycles, there’s lots of silly bro-science non-sense out there that gets parroted and hard not to believe.
Hcg keeps your testes functioning and avoids testicular shut down on cycle- in my experience I could maintain and/or bring back sperm count while on cycle, even with Tren and nandrolones which annihilate testicular function and do shut you down harder (“shut down is shut down” is ignorant bro posts you’ll see sometimes), unfortunately i was not able to get sperm high enough to get the job done so I had to come off. I don’t really wish to say how long I was on as I don’t want to someday see someone post “a guy TheBeat was on for (5,10,20 years, it doesn’t matter) and got his girl pregnant so I’m going to stay on for 10 years and hit hcg most the time and only come off if I have too and I’ll be fine.” I was on for a long time is all, and spent thousands on blood work and can help share my personal results.


#13

I hear you. And I’m glad you’ve managed to get her pregnant.
The main reasons I’m tapering off and cycling are due to fertility and also travelling with gear. I know I will be planning some holidays soon and in my opinion I think it may be an unnecessary risk travelling with gear especially to the US. I have been to the US on many occasions and have been “random” security searched almost every time.

However, I will monitor my recovery and how I feel in a couple weeks and if I’m back to how I was pre-cycle I will commit to self-administered TRT.
In your opinion, whats the best way to use hCG in regards to maintaining fertility, as you do have blood work to back up your opinions.
What do you think about leydig cell desensitisation? Bro-science?

SB


#14

Leydig cell desensitization is real. Studies and empirical evidence have shown that the longer you go without a stimulus, the harder it is and higher doses needed to bring back a response. As far as high doses causing desensitization, it’s a sound theory and I’m not sure if it’s been proven. High doses can be necessary when one has been suppressed for a long period of time, in which case- high doses would not cause desensitization, but high doses when not needed seem like they would. It’s my opinion that one shouldn’t let themselves get to a point of a long period with no stimulus and heavy suppression.
I’ve personally found the standard 500iu a week, as well as one study, to not be quite high enough. There’s a study on fertility and trt that showed a 136% response with 500iu eod, and 86% with 250iu iirc. The more frequent the dose the (slightly) higher it needs to be. I’ve personally had good results dividing a vial into 8 weeks with 2 shots a week for a total of 625iu, and with a vial into 6 weeks with 3 shots a week for a total of 833IU a week. If someone is using for recovery then I think 500iu 3x a week or eod is probably idea unless it was a long or heavy cycle, but again I personally think we should maintain function during cycles lasting longer than 8 weeks.
Note that I’ve used hcg 90% of the year for over a decade with dosages ranging from 100iu a day to 1666iu 3x a week and I’m personally fine, but can’t give a recommendation for excessive or blind use.


#15

Insulin syringes: #29, 0.5ml, 1/2"


#16

I was referring to leydig cell desensitisation from continued use of hCG which you also addressed. I stopped my hCG when I was on only 35/35mg per week of test p/mast p and immediately started Nolva at 20mg ED. I felt my testes feeling fuller as opposed to shrinking when I missed a shot of hCG on cycle.
Im guessing my levels of AAS (~70mg/wk) were low enough to start recovery without hCG? I am still on the 20mg ED nolva and my testes seem to be a good size and I am not noticing any further atrophy. I was waiting on clomid but I feel I may not even need that now. It is still early days (2 days since last 5/5mg injection), but I feel good. Yesterday my pumps were insane in the gym, I do not think my AAS levels are high enough to elicit such good pumps so I am thinking I have some sort of HPTA function now.

SB


#17

Sorry KSman I do not follow what you are replying to here.

SB


#18

Use insulin syringes to inject smaller doses of gear.


#19

Ah I see, yes those 0.5ml insulin syringes are what I was using to get such low doses (back filling) but to get lower doses than 5mg each (0.05ml) was getting too difficult hence why I just dropped it.

So far, I feel ok. I’m 3 days post-injection which was 5mg/5mg test p/mast p, when can I expect a crash if any?

An observation, last night I had crazy night sweats. My bed was absolutely soaked. Still only on 20mg Nolva ED. Morning wood is still present.

SB


#20

Sometimes guys will get hot flashing, wait to see if it is non-reoccurring.

Insulin syringes do fill directly, back filling not needed and an opportunity for contamination. Yes, slow to fill.

If dose is too small, that is the problem.