T Nation

Lost Muscle on HIT Program

Dear all,
One question is this hit only for beginners?
In all my years of training, well not that many 7 years I have made good to steady gains. I started at the age of 30 at 151 and went to 176. Six months ago I started hit what a total disaster, I went DOWN to 166 pounds, and DOWN in strength, however after stopping the program a few weeks ago I am back up to 171.

So to all people who have been training for over a year, please do “NOT” try this style of training.

I mean I was fooled with all the logic talk, the main problem I think is the lack of training, lack of real intensity and of doing the very slow reps, and training to failure, if you visit any hit board you will constantly see the members talking about plagues, I can understand this, as progress is not no existent, it’s backwards.
thebigbull, or becoming the bigbull again.

oops…I mis judged ur question…content removed…

HIT encourages its lifters to do less work (stay in the gym shorter, only one set and to failure, and such). Even train less; if you’re still sore take another day off. I tried it for 2 years that I’ll never have back. It would be good for maintenance or if you’re on vacation and trying to get a quick workout in a shitty hotel gym, but otherwise…

[quote]BF Bullpup wrote:
HIT encourages its lifters to do less work (stay in the gym shorter, only one set and to failure, and such). Even train less; if you’re still sore take another day off. I tried it for 2 years that I’ll never have back. It would be good for maintenance or if you’re on vacation and trying to get a quick workout in a shitty hotel gym, but otherwise…[/quote]

Great post.

Maintenance on vacation maybe, but I think it�??s just for beginners and granny�??s, I mean why do the reps so slow, it�??s like fairy training are they scared they will hurt their muscles.

Slow reps take the momentum completely out of it. Slinging the weight around does what? Cheats the weight up, does that build more muscle?! And furthermore most HIT don’t do superslow reps.

I have NEVER lost strength while doing an HIT routine, never. I always either go up or stay the same as last workout (usually the former). I’m not saying HIT is the only way, hell no, I think many many routines are great if stuck to.

No offense, but you clearly don’t understand intensity either. You said HIT didn’t have “real intensity” What does that even mean? It’s sort of an oxymoron, LOL. Are you going to failure? If someone put a gun to your head will you do another rep? Or are you defining intensity as doing 30 half assed sets? All while you waste your life away in the gym averaging 2 lbs of muscle a year like you’ve been doing the last 7 years.

Sorry for the rant but thats my take on it.
-J

I have yet to see someone who has trained with HIT for most of their training who looks like I want to look aside from the usual poster boys Mentzer and Yates who both gained most of their mass (if not damn near all of it) by not using HIT. While I am sure there may be one or two out there, there is no way I would waste my time on it.

To each his own.

My biggest problem with HIT is the slow reps BS. You muscles are designed to fire as quickly as possible. Most pros train in an explosive manner.

Slow training may burn more, but I seriously doubt it hits the fast twitch fibers as much because it lacks overload. I always got a better pump and mind-muscle connection (not to mention, gains) from explosive style reps.

I think most of the gains people experience on HIT programs are in the first few weeks. Often times they are just recovering from the volume training that they needed a short break from.

what does hit stand for?

[quote]chutec wrote:
what does hit stand for?[/quote]

Historically Idiotic Training.

OK seriously, High Intensity Training.

It’s a brilliant cult.

“HIT works great for guys with average genetics!”
“…But I’ve been doing HIT for years with no results?”
“That’s because you have average genetics! Imagine how much worse your results would be if you had a non-HIT training program!”
“…Oh OK…I love HIT.”

I do think that for most people on this website a HIT program would work quite well though. Better than that high frequency stuff everybody seems to like so much. Isn’t DC training a form of HIT, seems to work quite well… However, I do agree that advanced training methods, such as DC and HIT can only be effective once you already have a solid base of muscle, which at 170 lbs you probably did not have yet.

I think where a lot of people go wrong with these slow reps is actually counting. I think if you count to 4 on the way up and to 4 on the way down you are missing the point. What you should focus on is a contraction of the targeted muscle. Sometimes that means you have to slow down the movement a bit, sometimes you have to speed it up a bit. Always going as fast as possible doesn’t mean you will get the best contraction in the targeted muscle though, at least that is my opinion.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have yet to see someone who has trained with HIT for most of their training who looks like I want to look aside from the usual poster boys Mentzer and Yates who both gained most of their mass (if not damn near all of it) by not using HIT. While I am sure there may be one or two out there, there is no way I would waste my time on it.

To each his own.[/quote]

GGreat post, as you say, there is no way I would waste my time on it.

It�??s a beginners program and that�??s about it.
thebigbull

It is not a beginners program. After all Yates, the Mentzers, Dugdale, Aaron Baker, David Dearth and many more bodybuilders have used the HIT techniques to further improve their already impressive physique. Granted that they may have built their bodies with a higher volume program, they have certainly improved it with HIT later on. Therefore, I think it is an advanced technique and not a beginners program.

Furthermore, if it was a beginners program you might want to consider using it, since you do not weigh that much yet. The reason you did not do well may have been because you were not advanced enough yet.

[quote]francois1 wrote:
I do think that for most people on this website a HIT program would work quite well though. Better than that high frequency stuff everybody seems to like so much. Isn’t DC training a form of HIT, seems to work quite well… However, I do agree that advanced training methods, such as DC and HIT can only be effective once you already have a solid base of muscle, which at 170 lbs you probably did not have yet.
[/quote]

First, no DC is not a form of HIT. Dante has commented on that subject numerous times. Go over to IM and search for HIT posts by Dante and you’ll be sure to find some.

Second, your statements seem a little contradictory (probably not intentionally though). You say that for most people on this website HIT would work well, then you say that it’s an advanced method (meaning should be done by advanced trainees). If you honestly believe that “most” people on this site fall into the advanced category, go read the “Who here really trains” thread.

I’d say that most people who read this site would fall between beginner and intermediate. There are some advanced lifters, I’m not denying that. But the majority are not.

[quote]
I think where a lot of people go wrong with these slow reps is actually counting. I think if you count to 4 on the way up and to 4 on the way down you are missing the point. What you should focus on is a contraction of the targeted muscle. Sometimes that means you have to slow down the movement a bit, sometimes you have to speed it up a bit. Always going as fast as possible doesn’t mean you will get the best contraction in the targeted muscle though, at least that is my opinion.[/quote]

You know, I honestly believe that the rep speed isn’t all that important. I know of guys who like fast reps (Shawn Ray and Flex Wheeler come to mind) and guys who like slow reps (Mentzer, Viator, Future over at IM). You’ll find examples of people who got big using both methods. And, you’ll find plenty of people who didn’t using both methods. Why? Because rep speed really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things.

I also think that it’s somewhat intrinsic, and has a lot to do simply with personal preference. If you enjoy doing fast reps, but try to force yourself to do slow reps, then you probably won’t stick to the program for long; and therefore won’t get good results from it. Enjoyment of the program is an aspect that gets overlooked quite often, but is very important for long term commitment to it.

In the end, there is no “best” program. There are lots of ways to go about getting to your destination, and it’s up to you to pick the way/method that appeals to you. Trying to go someone else’s way without really believing in it or liking it, probably isn’t gonna get you the results you’re looking for, no matter how good the program is in theory.

sorry but am i missing something here??
are we talking about the HIIT style program used by gym jones?
the hiit that i know you work fast and you rest less. although it does induce hypertrophy, i wouldnt use it to bulk…
and personally, i wouldnt recomend it for a beginner either.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
sorry but am i missing something here??
are we talking about the HIIT style program used by gym jones?
the hiit that i know you work fast and you rest less. although it does induce hypertrophy, i wouldnt use it to bulk…
and personally, i wouldnt recomend it for a beginner either. [/quote]

No.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) is a form of cardio that is favored by many coaches to improve anaerobic endurance capacity (some also like it for burning fat).

HIT (High Intensity Training) is a method of resistance training pioneered by Arthur Jones. The original format called for 1 all out set to failure on several exercises (one for every major muscle group/full body), performed in circuit fashion, done 3 days per week. There are other variations of it (Mentzer’s “Heavy Duty”, Dr. Darden’s version, etc…), but they pretty much all revolve around the use of 1 all out working set (sometimes with “intensity” techniques thrown in to prolong TUT).

[quote]

You know, I honestly believe that the rep speed isn’t all that important. I know of guys who like fast reps (Shawn Ray and Flex Wheeler come to mind) and guys who like slow reps (Mentzer, Viator, Future over at IM). You’ll find examples of people who got big using both methods. And, you’ll find plenty of people who didn’t using both methods. Why? Because rep speed really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things.

I also think that it’s somewhat intrinsic, and has a lot to do simply with personal preference. If you enjoy doing fast reps, but try to force yourself to do slow reps, then you probably won’t stick to the program for long; and therefore won’t get good results from it. Enjoyment of the program is an aspect that gets overlooked quite often, but is very important for long term commitment to it.

In the end, there is no “best” program. There are lots of ways to go about getting to your destination, and it’s up to you to pick the way/method that appeals to you. Trying to go someone else’s way without really believing in it or liking it, probably isn’t gonna get you the results you’re looking for, no matter how good the program is in theory.[/quote]

you cant deny that rep speed isn’t important. If Mentzer lifted slow, he did it for a reason. If flex lifted fast, he did it for a reason. Im just busting your balls a bit but would a power lifter snatch really slow? but i guess if you’re talking strictly hypertrophy, lifting with a slower tempo can be beneficial.
i personally think one should explore both. lets say i dead 400lbs max. id shake if i tried to lift 135lbs slow. and i feel thats because i lift to get to the point. i dont spend much time in the middle, just at the beginning and end. On the other hand, if i adjusted my tempo, i will probably work the middle spectrum of my lift and reduce the shaking by making myself stronger in that area.
and of course the best program is the one that works for you.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
sorry but am i missing something here??
are we talking about the HIIT style program used by gym jones?
the hiit that i know you work fast and you rest less. although it does induce hypertrophy, i wouldnt use it to bulk…
and personally, i wouldnt recomend it for a beginner either.

No.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) is a form of cardio that is favored by many coaches to improve anaerobic endurance capacity (some also like it for burning fat).

HIT (High Intensity Training) is a method of resistance training pioneered by Arthur Jones. The original format called for 1 all out set to failure on several exercises (one for every major muscle group/full body), performed in circuit fashion, done 3 days per week. There are other variations of it (Mentzer’s “Heavy Duty”, Dr. Darden’s version, etc…), but they pretty much all revolve around the use of 1 all out working set (sometimes with “intensity” techniques thrown in to prolong TUT).[/quote]

thanks for the info, but from what i understand, intensity requires some kind of speed?? and yea TUT. another component of lifting speed. so how is TUT achieved when one is lifting fast…

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:

thanks for the info, but from what i understand, intensity requires some kind of speed?? and yea TUT. another component of lifting speed. so how is TUT achieved when one is lifting fast…
[/quote]

Intensity can mean many different things. Some use it to mean % of 1RM, some use it to mean the level of physical exertion, it can also mean a mental state.

In HIT, intensity is mostly related to the mental state, and level of physical exertion. Basically, you are pushing yourself to the absolute limits of your physical capacity (the program is very “intense”).

TUT (Time Under Tension) simply means the amount of time your muscles are working during a set. It really has little to do with lifting speed (possible exceptions might be if you actually were to throw the weight, thus unloading the muscle’s momentarily).

HIT nut cases who declare all other forms of training to be a waste of time and who refuse to consider any other additional sources of information, of which Mentzer was the quintessential specimen, have given rise to the notion that anything with a HIT flavor is instant bullshit.

I disagree. I have never done any single canned program in my life, but have used HIT principles, like lower frequency and volume coupled with eyeball popping post failure effort with much success.

Mentzer and Jones had the social and PR skills of a nuclear warhead and did themselves much damage and by extension those who value their contributions.

HIT principles have much to offer to the discerning consumer especially today if for nothing else than to teach these kids what hard works is.

DC is not HIT, but it is high intensity training and it works. Dante Trudel is only a man like anyone else, but he has a rock solid understanding of the things that really matter in this game.

As for Dr. Darden I stand by what I said in one of the discussions. He could take most of his young detractors far beyond where they’ll ever get by themselves.

I will also say this. I CANNOT imagine HIT not working at all for anybody who knows what they’re doing and are eating like a horse. I don’t know how you could pound the livin shit outta your muscles like that, feed them properly and see NO results.

It’s funny when someone fails on HVT system it’s the fault of the trainee for not follwing the program properly. (see: http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2026854 )

But when some one fails on HIT it is the fault of HIT.

Double standard maybe?

When people switch back from HVT to HIT, they kind of forget the “I” part. You can’t use the same weight you are used to. You need to plan to progressively increase your weight by 20-30% if you where doing 4 sets or more.

The biggest factor in determining if HIT is for you, is your personality. Do you like to test your limits every workout? Every 1 or 2 workouts should yield a PR either in weight lifted or number of reps done on all big exercises. When you are progressing on HIT, it is very rewarding because you see progress almost every workout. That is the part I enjoy the most and the reason my training is mostly HIT. Yet I acknowledge, it might not be for everyone.

Also I think some people in this board like trainning too much for HIT. It’s a lifestyle for some. They love to go to the gym and they go there 4 times a week or more for more than 1 hour, and they are probably not going to change that. Then I’d say HIT is not for them. They should stick to volume, not to failure training or they would destroy themselves pretty quickly.