Loss of Back Position and Rounding in the DL

Had my last workout of my program today and my friend encouraged me to go for an unplanned max on the DL. As dumb as it was at least I learnt something from it.

Losing back position and rounding is the limiting factor for me. Like bar speed looked alright but when I got to the top half of the lift it was like running into a wall because of the awkward rounded back.

It started rounding a bit at 220kg, bit worse at 230kg and by 240kg it was enough to mess up the lift and ended up getting stuck and hitching.

I did pause deadlifts an inch off the floor the training cycle before last and it ended up helping position when I maxed but even though form didn’t break down 230kg didn’t budge off the floor so I didn’t get much stronger.

So pauses helped but I didn’t really get an idea of what would happen with heavier weights broken off the floor. Today with heavier weight it was like my back just wasn’t strong enough and today at heavier weights it just went and like broke down.

What can I do to work on this?

Are you not wearing a belt?

Work on bracing, both lats and abs. Look up Mike Tuchscherer lat activation on youtube.

Also heavy barbell rows are good for back strength. Some cheating is allowed once it gets heavy.

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It didn’t look too bad to me. I bet if you weren’t smiling you would have gotten it.

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More glutes and hamstrings! More hip extension.

Legs break the weight from the floor.

As the bar gets near the knees, then passes the knees, the hips drive forward.

Once the bar is above or past the knees, you can finish the lift with your back.

Legs/hips/back.

In the lift you make, everything is cool. The bar passes your knees and the hips drive forward and you lean back.

In the lift you miss, the bar slows around your knees, and you start pulling/leaning back, or using your back to finish Without driving the glutes to push hips towards the bar. You’re caught in the “hitch” because your back is arched too soon and you can’t get your hips forward and under you.

Work on using more hip extension and lower body to get the bar over your knees. Then finish with your back.

Belts, bracing and more lats are all cool too.

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slowing the clip down looks like your using your back to pull the slack out of the bar. Back needs to be locked in place. We’re not all yury Belkin you should toss a belt on

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What facial expressions would you recommend lol

I’ve been working the belt into training often this past few weeks. Maybe I’m not skilled enough yet but it doesn’t seem to make significant difference like on squats. It’s a work in progress I think. Yesterday I didn’t really occur to me to use a belt because I was in the mindset to just be messing around.

If my back stays straight the hips coming through to lockout is pretty much like a given and I don’t really think about it that much.

I think my back is pretty weak in these positions and with these loads because my back doesn’t round much in training. I don’t think I can “finish a lift with my back”. I’m trying to not have to at all by keeping my back flatter.

I don’t find that a belt helps as much for deadlifts as it does for squats, but it still does something if you know how to use it properly.

This is a weird exercise but Mike Tuchscherer was specifically recommending it to improve lower back strength, could be worth trying. Seated Zercher good mornings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ib_nGJkEMc

That is an unconventional one lol

Speaking of conventional I’m looking to do a more Hypertrophy focused training cycle next and conventionals will be making a come back I think. Bigger muscle is stronger true? I think like the lower body will take care of itself but maybe I should focus on my back more?

Dunno what exercises are good exactly maybe heavy rows like you were saying. I don’t really hear as much about getting bigger erectors or like stabilising muscles but in principle it should still work right?

Barbell rows where you don’t touch the floor are good for building your lower back, it seems like just as much of a lower back exercise as a lat exercise to me. You could touch the floor between reps too but controlling the eccentric portion would be better for hypertrophy. Other than that, conventional DL, RDL/SLDL, good mornings of various sorts, back raises.

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As discussed simplest way is to get bigger and add more muscle in the back and you’ll get stronger. Even getting the prime movers (quads, hams and glutes) bigger/stronger will assist because you’re back will be less prone to rounding out as a compensatory mechanism to put your hips/glutes into a better position to break the floor. A caloric surplus and driving up volume in relevant exercises will get you right.

Vaguely recalling your training log I don’t think you’ve been doing much in the way of rows, shrugs or other upper back accessories (correct me if I’m mistaken). Sometimes there’s only so far you can take the competition lift especially when it’s reduced ROM such as the sumo i.e. geared more for efficiency than getting in more work.

A conventional/hip hinge variation with greater ROM and time under tension will be more effective in building muscle vs sumo. That’s a lot of bang for your buck already muscle group wise and there’s plenty of variety in lower and upper back exercises that you can perform for high rep/volume/frequency to build up those area also.

One consideration I’m undecided on is loading.

You may want to consider doing some heavier stuff e.g. heavy shrugs, rows and even cheat rows are challenging your back with heavy loads tho it’ll be quite taxing. Even just standing up holding 300kg is challenging your back (not recommending this just using it as an example). Going heavy might be more useful then doing exclusively chest supported rows with light weight nomsayin (tho that should still make up part of your routine). Hell front squats too even tho I hate them personally and strongman carries could work. Lots of options pre much but consider specificity of joint angles and loading.

The second approach is related to cuing, technique and assistance exercises that improve the movement/technique.

Cuing wise I think patience off the floor is a big one and a favourite of many lifters e.g. Bryce Krawczyk’s. Many lifters sacrifice a good position for an easier start but it doesn’t matter how fast the bar blasts off the ground if you positioning is too fucked up to lock out properly.

Other cues have been covered by other users e.g. pulling the tension of the bar and yourself as a system and various cues to engage the lats and back to increase spinal stability

There are movements that emphasize and let you spend more time in problematic parts of the ROM and challenge your ability to maintain good positions e.g. flat/neutral back can work well for many lifters. At worst it’s more work/time under tension for hypertrophy purposes.

Pauses are good shit but apparently may not be enough on it’s own or as you’ve been doing them. I might have been the person who suggested this in the first place but it’s possible that for all the cuing and assistance work that we do the legs are outpacing the back in strength: an “upper body” v “lower body” weakness in the DL if you will. So we need to structure training to challenge the back more.

Pausing at higher percentages is an option and so is including tempo work on the eccentric part of the deadlift because IIRC you usually skip it entirely. That’s a lot of work and time under tension in keeping your back straight under load and positions specific to the deadlift.

IMO a combination of these two approaches is called for if you like concurrenty kind of periodisation or at least as per phase potentiation with a hypertrophy block first then a strength block.

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How about hip thrusts?

Work is work at the end of the day but hip thrusts aren’t the best for powerlifting purposes.

On Kabuki Movement Systems they have a special exercise that is basically a standing hip thrust, you hook a band to something behind you and then put it around your waist and do RDLs. I did these for a while in my last training cycle, you really feel the in your glutes. Now it feels like my glutes are more involved in everything. It’s worth a try.

I have seen Matt Sohmer do hip thrusts and Bryce Lewis was programming them for a guy I know, so I won’t say that they are total bullshit but if you need direct glute work they are an option. The exercise above is way better though, and you can actually fully extend your hips (unlike a heavy hip thrust).

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I went to Josh Bryant’s seminar a few weeks ago, he was talking about using front squat holds and strongman events for building up your back and abs. For the front squat hold it’s just like it sounds, load up the bar and stand there for 10-30 seconds and stay braced. As far as strongman stuff, farmer’s walks, yoke walks, stone or sandbag carries and that kind of stuff. Lighter and longer distance for hypertrophy, heavier specifically for strength work. You would do stuff like this far away from a meet and it will require taking other stuff out of your training.

Another one that comes to mind - no-touch deadlifts with a controlled eccentric for higher reps. Recommended by both Sheiko and the Kabuki guys.

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@chris_ottawa and @khangles. Thanks for all the options. If you guys were to choose some exercises like your top picks which would you go for?

It’s about time for a Hypertrophy block for me I think and I’m gonna get swole and fat as lol.

Stuff that has worked in the past for sure is conventional deadlifts cos I did them from when I started lifting (maybe a little later when I started training lower body) and they’ve built most of my muscle and strength I think so conventional variations should be good too.

Haven’t rowed consistently enough in the past to say. Standing good morning didn’t do much for me but I was going pretty light because going heavy was scary. Shrugs built up my traps loads when I started lifting but I didn’t want extra big traps so don’t do them much anymore dunno if it helped the rest of my posterior chain.

Haven’t tried the rest.

Worst case is it like possible to do too much and fry my lower back and be counter productive. Or do we want to be hammering the back within reason for hypertrophy?

If you have access to strongman implements then you could add one of the above exercises to the end of each workout.

Exactly how I would go about programming everything would depend on how you are already training, but I would do barbell rows for sure since you are going to be rowing one way or another. A lot of people who are into full body training still use upper/lower splits for hypertrophy, just something to consider.

If you are going to deadlift twice a week you could work up to a top set of sumo DL (like 8-10 reps) and then follow that up with no-touch deadlifts. It’s true that deadlifts aren’t the greatest hypertrophy exercise but you’re a powerlifter so you still need to do them anyway. On another day you can do conventional, you can use a snatch grip for more ROM and some upper back/lat work too and a controlled eccentric for max hypertrophy gains. If you feel that glutes are a weak point then banded RDLs are a good idea. What else you add on top of that will depend on how much volume you can handle.

If your gym has a safety squat bar then Hatfield squats are awesome. The results are good, but the exercise itself is torture when you do it for high reps. It will build you whole back, upper back in particular, and quads too of course. Just make sure you do your regular comp. squats as well.

Going to make suggestions based on a true hypertrophy phase for powerlifting not some powerbuilding bullshit.

Firstly in terms of exercise selection:

I’d keep the competition movement in. Keep using the belt on the deadlift even if it isn’t much it’s still practice. How much actual work you do with the comp lift is personal preference but I would err on the side of less e.g. minimum warm up to a heavy sumo set of 2-5 @RPE 7-8. Do more if you wish. Nothing too crazy but more like an over warm up nomsayin. Barely enough to somewhat maintain various adaptions e.g. technique, hook grip, mobility etc. while saving time and energy to put towards your “builder” lifts where the real work is being done.

Now onto the main/builder lifts. I’m always more for a minimum effective dose approach in lifting. Conventional variations work for you. Perhaps a heavier variation and a lighter more time under tension + extended ROM e.g. Conventional w. controlled eccentric and snatch grip stiff leg romanians. You also want hypertrophy in the back so rows especially heavy BB rows are indicated. Between these we cover all the muscles (maybe not enough quads but I think squats will take care of that).

Beyond this you can add more stuff but like I was saying IMO go with minimum effective dose: if this much works well enough you don’t need to add more, do more etc. right now. There’s plenty of time/opportunity to do that next training cycle/s.

If I had to add stuff: Low stress back movements or high rep fluff can’t hurt much e.g. BW hypers, chest supported rows, straight arm cable lat pull overs actually mimic the action of the lats in the deadlift. Shrugs aren’t that taxing.

Leave the pause/tempo DL variations for strength blocks or maybe do a few extra warm up sets with pauses/tempo.

Hard to say. You can obviously overdo it. Train within your means and if you don’t know exactly how much you can tolerate err on the side of caution. Heavy compounds are super effective and offer bang for your buck but come at a big recovery cost e.g. squats vs leg press. Train smart, listen to your body and adjust accordingly.

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I think you’re getting good advice, but please allow me to ask and point out the obvious.

Have you been getting stronger from training cycle to training cycle?
If the answer is yes, I might use a little of the advice you’re getting but largely keep things the same.

And when things get heavy, almost everyone’s form will break down. Sometimes the best answer is just get stronger. Since your 220 looked nice, I’m leaning in this direction but knowing the answer to the question just posed could give you insight into figuring this out with more certainty.