Losing Hip and Ab Fat as Skinny Fat

[quote]zapata1 wrote:
Narcissist always blame other people or there circumstances for not achieving what they think they are capable of. Thats all you are doing. Any program if you workout hard enough, consistenly and have good nutrition then you should have gotten some results. But you got weaker and fatter. It is you fault. You messed up. Now own up to it and fix it.

FYI I guarantee that your workouts were half assed and you probably have an excuse on why you couldn’t always train up to your potential. [/quote]

Define good nutrition. Sufficient calorie intake? Check. (what do you consider sufficient?) Protein intake? Minimum 180g a day

THe thing is I want to lose the abdominal and hip fat so I can look at least somewhat decent. But even at a low cal intake when I’m feeling shit and losing strength I’m stalling on weight loss for 2 weeks and see no improvement in the mirror. SO what the fuck do I do?

Sleep is important yes, but you can’t expect to have perfect sleep for long periods of time.
Admittedly I had and have a bad sleeping pattern, usually 4 am to 1 pm or sometimes it used to be 6 am - 3 pm. But as you see I got 9 hours of sleep usually.

Food quality during my deficit was decent, but not perfect. From time to time I’d eat something sweet or whatever, but for the most part my diet consisted of healthy foods (yes this includes white rice). Besides, IIFYM seems to create good results even for skinny fats - saw a dude with similar genetics as me get to 10% bf on that diet. Yet I can’t recreate it…

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

Focus on increasing/maintaining weight on the compound lifts with good technique, count calories in accordance with your goal (muscle gain/fat loss)
[/quote]
I feel you are missing increasing food quality from this list, along with any kind of recovery tools like sleep. I’m perfectly happy to believe you know this already, and it was just an oversight. I’m not happy to believe that you’ve been doing them consistently for years.

There’s an element of truth here, however harshly it’s framed. Bad genetics do not account for losing strength on a cut, you have to admit that you somewhere lost sight of the fundamentals that you’ve listed above and refocus.

EDIT: Edited to fix quotations, because they bugged me.

[quote]Narciss wrote:
THe thing is I want to lose the abdominal and hip fat so I can look at least somewhat decent. But even at a low cal intake when I’m feeling shit and losing strength I’m stalling on weight loss for 2 weeks and see no improvement in the mirror. SO what the fuck do I do?
[/quote]
Well obviously the low calorie intake is not working for you if you are feeling shit and noticing significant strength loss. That would suggest to me that the calories are too low and the food quality is not there.

You can expect decent sleep quality most of the time, and it would be a good idea to make it a priority for all aspects of life. I find everything gets better with decent sleep. Jason Ferruggia had a piece on his blog a few years ago that went into detail on different approaches to this. I find ZMA is a massive help to me on this, along with regular sleep patterns and limiting stimulant use (caffeine, it affects you longer than you think). I’m sure there is probably stuff on this site that can help you too, but I’m short on time right now.

[quote]
Food quality during my deficit was decent, but not perfect. From time to time I’d eat something sweet or whatever, but for the most part my diet consisted of healthy foods (yes this includes white rice). Besides, IIFYM seems to create good results even for skinny fats - saw a dude with similar genetics as me get to 10% bf on that diet. Yet I can’t recreate it…[/quote]
In my n=1 experience, IIFYM is a good way to lose some weight, it is not the way to look “decent” as you say. My physique gets massively improved with good food choices. I also perform better in everything. Try and keep a food diary for a week or two and look back over it. You might be surprised at how much crap is sneaking in because it “fits your macros”

[quote]Narciss wrote:
Besides, IIFYM seems to create good results even for skinny fats - saw a dude with similar genetics as me get to 10% bf on that diet. Yet I can’t recreate it…[/quote]

Does anyone still have any doubt that this guy thinks “skinny fat” is an actual genetically predetermined bodytype?

@OP

Read through your own 1st post, look at the total time spent in an actual caloric excess, and tell me, logically, how much muscle did you expect to have put on within that timeframe.

Shit. This is not rocket science.

This is COMMON SENSE.

guy i work with has been training for about 3 years
first 2 1/2 years no real progress
he was
afraid he was going to get fat
afraid he was going to get to big
afraid he was going to get hurt
last 5 or 6 months he has made awsome progress
he quit being afraid

[quote]Narciss wrote:
What happened was I first did 4 months of semi dirty bulking where I got pretty fat. Then I went on a caloric deficit for 5 months (and still on it), losing alot of strength in the process - and I was weak to begin with.
[/quote]

This is the reason that you are unhappy with your physique. You spent 4 months getting fat while working out 3 hours per week, then sent 5 months starving yourself. That does not lead to a lean and muscular physique.

It is not your genetics – you just did everything wrong. The sooner you accept this, the better off you are going to be.

OP, you made very bad decisions with regard to diet in the past 9 months. End of story. You ate too much, then you ate too little – probably with pretty bad food selection/ quality the whole time.

Click on “articles”, select the tag “fat loss training”, and read every fucking article listed. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Then come back to this thread with your “I’m doing everything right but not losing fat for 2 weeks” complaints.


picture on the left is what my genetics told me I was going to look like. I was 18 years old, and 125 lbs. Much smaller than you are now. Picture on the right is me telling my genetics to go fuck themselves. I’ve been lifting for 12 years. It takes time. I weigh in the 190’s now.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
picture on the left is what my genetics told me I was going to look like. I was 18 years old, and 125 lbs. Much smaller than you are now. Picture on the right is me telling my genetics to go fuck themselves. I’ve been lifting for 12 years. It takes time. I weigh in the 190’s now.[/quote]

Lifting and eating sensibly for 12 years.

Turns out dedication and work ethic seem to be the cure for “skinny fat”.

Hope I am not too late too help. First you did gain more fat than you wanted and not enough muscle or strength. At least you tried. You injured yourself and this is probably because your form is not proper. Squat and deadlift form is critical. Flat back, push out with stomach, stay tight, shoulder blades pulled back, etc. If I saw you work out I could analyze exactly what you need just by seeing your body shape and form in the lifts. What I am going to suggest is radical and almost no one suggests this as most have no clue how it works. It is always suggested that full range of motion is important for muscle growth. That is BS. You may benefit much more to do incomplete ranges of motion in the deadlift, squat and bench press. A long limbed lifter has such poor leverage in the bottom portion of most lifts. This makes it extremely hard to get strong and can cause injuries.

I recommend experimenting with deadlifts in the rack, try pulling from mid shin and slightly below the knee. This will improve your leverages and you will get much stronger faster. I also would recommend using a parallel handle bar (hex bar) these are available in rackable models. My regular hex bar will work but limits the amount of plates per side. So, I just pull the pin out of one side of the rack, place 2 jack stands at the right height and place the pin on the jack stands… This is for one side of the bar, the other side is the rack. I just improvised and made my rack narrower for my bar. For the squat, you can squat with a wide stance, knees out and go to slightly above parallel. Also do some quarter squats as well. I would suggest doing the deadlift and power squat only one day per week, alternating them and alternating the different ranges of motion. I also suggest you get or have your gym aquire a safety squat bar.( but the technique I am going to suggest can be used with the leg press and hack machine) The power squat and deadlift emphasize body power, pure strength as I suggested doing them. By doing your leg press, safety bar squat( the original way, holding on to the rack to maintain an upright stance) or hack machine in the following manner you will develop your quads maximally. Go down to parallel or slightly below, come up only about a foot and back down. This is a partial movement that will stimulate your quads more than anything you will ever do. Do at least 10 reps.

For Bench I suggest you only lower the bar till your forearm/upper arm is at a 90 degree angle. This greatly improves leverage so you can get really strong. For overhead presses I suggest only bringing the bar down as low as the top of the head for the same reasons.
If you want to preserve your flexibility then do the full range of motion with a light weight for a warm up and at the end of the last set. this will keep your range of motion intact for shoulders and legs/hips

People with different genetics as far as limb length and especially people with long femurs in proportion to the rest of their body need to train different. The same exercises work for everyone, but how they are done is so important . Now I know the rules of powerlifting …but this is not about powerlifting, it is about making someone get stronger and put on some real muscle. Leverages are everything…that is why the most muscular guys you see naturally are shorter limbed.
In regard to repetitions… get STRONG, this means low reps. However, do one or 2 back off sets following your heavy stuff and do much higher reps…say 15-20 with the appropriate weight. This will give you more time under tension which helps muscle growth.

Realize it takes time, recovery is so important. Work out hard for 3 weeks, then deload…back off and just do the movemments light, no high reps, just to maintain your technique and to get the blood flowing. Or take the week off. This is a HUGE factor in continued progress…don’t forget this.

Now diet… eat enough to grow…but if getting too fat, back off on the calories. Also try walking 10 minutes several times per day. this helps burn pure fat and also helps with recovery as gentle movement aids blood flow to the muscles…I personally walk 4- 6 X’s a day(up to an hour total) This is way better than a one hour straight walk for our needs. Keeps the body active all day long which aids the metabolism.

When you have gained some decent strength and muscle…then if you want you can cut the fat. Diet always requires adjustments…

Isolation exercises are very important AFTER you have developed some strength and size and can see what muscles are developing fine and which need some help. This is the bodybuilding approach… The strength approach uses the isolation movements to improve a lagging area in regard to the major lifts.

For improving a muscle do higher reps, drop sets, super short rest 10-20 sec between sets, experiment with different exercises and “chase the pump” as they used to say. It works.

[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
Hope I am not too late too help. First you did gain more fat than you wanted and not enough muscle or strength. At least you tried. You injured yourself and this is probably because your form is not proper. Squat and deadlift form is critical. Flat back, push out with stomach, stay tight, shoulder blades pulled back, etc. If I saw you work out I could analyze exactly what you need just by seeing your body shape and form in the lifts. What I am going to suggest is radical and almost no one suggests this as most have no clue how it works. It is always suggested that full range of motion is important for muscle growth. That is BS. You may benefit much more to do incomplete ranges of motion in the deadlift, squat and bench press. A long limbed lifter has such poor leverage in the bottom portion of most lifts. This makes it extremely hard to get strong and can cause injuries.

I recommend experimenting with deadlifts in the rack, try pulling from mid shin and slightly below the knee. This will improve your leverages and you will get much stronger faster. For the squat, you can squat with a wide stance, knees out and go to slightly above parallel. Also do some quarter squats as well. I would suggest doing the deadlift and power squat only one day per week, alternating them and alternating the different ranges of motion. I also suggest you get or have your gym aquire a safety squat bar.( but the technique I am going to suggest can be used with the leg press and hack machine) The power squat and deadlift emphasize body power, pure strength as I suggested doing them. By doing your leg press, safety bar squat( the original way, holding on to the rack to maintain an upright stance) or hack machine in the following manner you will develop your quads maximally. Go down to parallel or slightly below, come up only about a foot and back down. This is a partial movement that will stimulate your quads more than anything you will ever do. Do at least 10 reps.

For Bench I suggest you only lower the bar till your forearm/upper arm is at a 90 degree angle. This greatly improves leverage so you can get really strong. For overhead presses I suggest only bringing the bar down as low as the top of the head for the same reasons.
If you want to preserve your flexibility then do the full range of motion with a light weight for a warm up and at the end of the last set. this will keep your range of motion intact for shoulders and legs/hips

People with different genetics as far as limb length and especially people with long femurs in proportion to the rest of their body need to train different. The same exercises work for everyone, but how they are done is so important . Now I know the rules of powerlifting …but this is not about powerlifting, it is about making someone get stronger and put on some real muscle. Leverages are everything…that is why the most muscular guys you see naturally are shorter limbed.

Realize it takes time, recovery is so important. Work out hard for 3 weeks, then deload…back off and just do the movemments light, no high reps, just to maintain your technique and to get the blood flowing. Or take the week off. This is a HUGE factor in continued progress…don’t forget this.

Now diet… eat enough to grow…but if getting too fat, back off on the calories. Also try walking 10 minutes several times per day. this helps burn pure fat and also helps with recovery as gentle movement aids blood flow to the muscles…I personally walk 4- 6 X’s a day(up to an hour total) This is way better than a one hour straight walk for our needs. Keeps the body active all day long which aids the metabolism.

When you have gained some decent strength and muscle…then if you want you can cut the fat. Diet always requires adjustments…

Isolation exercises are very important AFTER you have developed some strength and size and can see what muscles are developing fine and which need some help. This is the bodybuilding approach… The strength approach uses the isolation movements to improve a lagging area in regard to the major lifts.

For improving a muscle do higher reps, drop sets, super short rest 10-20 sec between sets, experiment with different exercises and “chase the pump” as they used to say. It works.[/quote]

I hope you don’t give this much advice to people in real life. Or any training advice, really. You act like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly don’t. It frightens me to think that people would listen to someone as unqualified as you.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I hope you don’t give this much advice to people in real life. Or any training advice, really. You act like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly don’t. It frightens me to think that people would listen to someone as unqualified as you.
[/quote]

I’ve actually used a lot of those training principles with pretty decent success. Instead of limiting the stroke of the concentric on upper body pressing, I would instead limit the eccentric (so, only press about halfway up, instead of stopping halfway down), but otherwise pretty similar.

Can’t actually comment on the nutrition.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
Hope I am not too late too help. First you did gain more fat than you wanted and not enough muscle or strength. At least you tried. You injured yourself and this is probably because your form is not proper. Squat and deadlift form is critical. Flat back, push out with stomach, stay tight, shoulder blades pulled back, etc. If I saw you work out I could analyze exactly what you need just by seeing your body shape and form in the lifts. What I am going to suggest is radical and almost no one suggests this as most have no clue how it works. It is always suggested that full range of motion is important for muscle growth. That is BS. You may benefit much more to do incomplete ranges of motion in the deadlift, squat and bench press. A long limbed lifter has such poor leverage in the bottom portion of most lifts. This makes it extremely hard to get strong and can cause injuries.

I recommend experimenting with deadlifts in the rack, try pulling from mid shin and slightly below the knee. This will improve your leverages and you will get much stronger faster. For the squat, you can squat with a wide stance, knees out and go to slightly above parallel. Also do some quarter squats as well. I would suggest doing the deadlift and power squat only one day per week, alternating them and alternating the different ranges of motion. I also suggest you get or have your gym aquire a safety squat bar.( but the technique I am going to suggest can be used with the leg press and hack machine) The power squat and deadlift emphasize body power, pure strength as I suggested doing them. By doing your leg press, safety bar squat( the original way, holding on to the rack to maintain an upright stance) or hack machine in the following manner you will develop your quads maximally. Go down to parallel or slightly below, come up only about a foot and back down. This is a partial movement that will stimulate your quads more than anything you will ever do. Do at least 10 reps.

For Bench I suggest you only lower the bar till your forearm/upper arm is at a 90 degree angle. This greatly improves leverage so you can get really strong. For overhead presses I suggest only bringing the bar down as low as the top of the head for the same reasons.
If you want to preserve your flexibility then do the full range of motion with a light weight for a warm up and at the end of the last set. this will keep your range of motion intact for shoulders and legs/hips

People with different genetics as far as limb length and especially people with long femurs in proportion to the rest of their body need to train different. The same exercises work for everyone, but how they are done is so important . Now I know the rules of powerlifting …but this is not about powerlifting, it is about making someone get stronger and put on some real muscle. Leverages are everything…that is why the most muscular guys you see naturally are shorter limbed.

Realize it takes time, recovery is so important. Work out hard for 3 weeks, then deload…back off and just do the movemments light, no high reps, just to maintain your technique and to get the blood flowing. Or take the week off. This is a HUGE factor in continued progress…don’t forget this.

Now diet… eat enough to grow…but if getting too fat, back off on the calories. Also try walking 10 minutes several times per day. this helps burn pure fat and also helps with recovery as gentle movement aids blood flow to the muscles…I personally walk 4- 6 X’s a day(up to an hour total) This is way better than a one hour straight walk for our needs. Keeps the body active all day long which aids the metabolism.

When you have gained some decent strength and muscle…then if you want you can cut the fat. Diet always requires adjustments…

Isolation exercises are very important AFTER you have developed some strength and size and can see what muscles are developing fine and which need some help. This is the bodybuilding approach… The strength approach uses the isolation movements to improve a lagging area in regard to the major lifts.

For improving a muscle do higher reps, drop sets, super short rest 10-20 sec between sets, experiment with different exercises and “chase the pump” as they used to say. It works.[/quote]

I hope you don’t give this much advice to people in real life. Or any training advice, really. You act like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly don’t. It frightens me to think that people would listen to someone as unqualified as you.
[/quote]
He’s just high as a kite.

I hope you don’t give this much advice to people in real life. Or any training advice, really. You act like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly don’t. It frightens me to think that people would listen to someone as unqualified as you.

I should not reply to this guy…but he has got me in a fighting mood…LOL…
I took the time to reply to Narcis… as he deserves a chance to achieve something worthwhile with his body. I saw his photos and my advice stands. I mentioned in my reply that this is a radically different solution than what most of you have heard or experienced. That is because what you are told 'works" is what works for the “successes” in this game. When you do things a bit different because your own unique body structure mandates it, you are criticized by the “know it alls” and they may comment and say things such as " partials don t work", you are not low enough, bring the bar all the way to the chest…LOL…Well, if you want to make progress and understand that unique body leverages make things different you will understand… I guarantee you guys that know this stuff will agree with me and that guys that think they know their stuff won’t! Sometimes you have to think outside the box to achieve great things. All the failures and successses in the iron game do pretty much the same thing… My advice will work for alot of people that are not making progress. Remember nothing is cast in stone in this game. I can guarantee that if Narcis puts in the work he will get STRONG! Ask Christian Thibaudeau if he likes my advice!!

[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
I hope you don’t give this much advice to people in real life. Or any training advice, really. You act like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly don’t. It frightens me to think that people would listen to someone as unqualified as you.

I should not reply to this guy…but he has got me in a fighting mood…LOL…
I took the time to reply to Narcis… as he deserves a chance to achieve something worthwhile with his body. I saw his photos and my advice stands. I mentioned in my reply that this is a radically different solution than what most of you have heard or experienced. That is because what you are told 'works" is what works for the “successes” in this game. When you do things a bit different because your own unique body structure mandates it, you are criticized by the “know it alls” and they may comment and say things such as " partials don t work", you are not low enough, bring the bar all the way to the chest…LOL…Well, if you want to make progress and understand that unique body leverages make things different you will understand… I guarantee you guys that know this stuff will agree with me and that guys that think they know their stuff won’t! I can guarantee that if Narcis puts in the work he will get STRONG! Ask Christian Thibodeaux if he likes my advice!![/quote]

[quote]dt79 wrote:
He’s just high as a kite.[/quote]

See? I was right.

And I think it’s gonna be a long, long time… ah… no…no…

Seriously… Rocket Man…

This guy spent 4 months gaining too much weight and 5 months dieting.

That’s it. And he’s convinced that his genetics suck.

Again, this guy has trained for 9 MONTHS.

4 months in a caloric excess. Excessive caloric excess where he got fat with God know what kind of shitty diet. 4 MONTHS.

Then immediately… spends 5 months dieting.

How is anything you wrote relevant to his situation?

Are you surprised his physique looks like that? Are you surprised his strength dropped? You think it’s because his unique leverages and choice of exercise variations somehow prevented him from progressing?

Do you think someone who has been training for 4 MONTHS while gaining far too much bodyfat can suddenly start losing weight with a diet consisting of shitty food sources and maintain his strength and muscle gained?

Common sense. It’s becoming extinct.

Thibs laughs at you. He laughs from his mountain.

I get your point…the guy does “seem” like a JOKE… seems like he did everything wrong…maybe it is a joke…LOL… Hey…I am not suprised he looks like that…I am not suprised he lost strength ( he did not have much to begin with). .But on the slight chance he is sincere, I want to help him. True he messed up royally! We agree on that… but you have got to start somewhere…LOL… he does “seem” ignorant…why would you keep eating and getting fatter with no muscle…maybe he thought all of a sudden he would magically grow muscles…? ( sorry to put him down…after I tried to help, but I am trying to get you to see my point) I love to see LOOSERS become WINNERS.
But if u see his pic and that is all I have to go on… he appeared to have long limbs and be quite the typical ectomorph (albeit with a spare tire…skinny fat indeed) .the way I suggest he train, if he decides to do it…will work better for him.
But I wrote that piece for lots of guys out there…there is some great advice in there.
True, if the guy is only benching halfway because that is what his structure mandates and he says he can BENCH 500 lbs…Well that just would not sit right with me, but I am saying use the lifts as a TOOL to get what you want. My point is: it is much better for him to be able to progress to that 500 lb half bench than to keep struggling with inferior leverages , probably quit in disgust… He will then have gained something and the iron would have helped him get there.
Not enough information out there on how to adapt exercises to meet your own unique structure.
Thibs ain t laughing…(for your info)

[quote]Rocket Man wrote:
But if u see his pic and that is all I have to go on… he appeared to have long limbs and be quite the typical ectomorph (albeit with a spare tire…skinny fat indeed) .the way I suggest he train, if he decides to do it…will work better for him. [/quote]

Bullshit. This is what I’m talking about. This is exactly why he thinks he has some genetically predetermined body type without taking all the other factors that lead to his current state into consideration.

[quote]But I wrote that piece for lots of guys out there…there is some great advice in there.
True, if the guy is only benching halfway because that is what his structure mandates and he says he can BENCH 500 lbs…Well that just would not sit right with me, but I am saying use the lifts as a TOOL to get what you want. [/quote]

I have no problem with this. I do not do full reps for many exercises myself. You should have specified your intentions instead of directing all this at him.

[quote]My point is: it is much better for him to be able to progress to that 500 lb half bench than to keep struggling with inferior leverages , probably quit in disgust… He will then have gained something and the iron would have helped him get there.
Not enough information out there on how to adapt exercises to meet your own unique structure. [/quote]

But how the fuck can you tell what is fit for his structure by looking at 3 pictures? His complaints of lower back pain? 5 months in a caloric deficit and eventually dropping to near “starvation mode”, as he calls it, will do that to you.

Again… COMMON SENSE.

Then to hell with him!

EDIT

^I am making a joke from Conan. Don’t quote me out of context.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Thibs laughs at you. He laughs from his mountain.[/quote]

you said…Bullshit. This is what I’m talking about. This is exactly why he thinks he …has some genetically predetermined body type without taking all the other factors that lead to his current state into consideration.

I agree…he is confused about his bodytype…and I agree that overeating and getting FAT led to his current condition…this is not an issue.

you said…But how the fuck can you tell what is fit for his structure by looking at 3 pictures? His complaints of lower back pain? 5 months in a caloric deficit and eventually dropping to near “starvation mode”, as he calls it, will do that to you.

obviously for me to totally understand this guy, I would have to meet him in person and see his structure and exercise form. Like I said… I tried to do with what info was available to me… It is entirely possible he could progress with REGULAR training done right… and I base his low back pain on improper form…because even elite lifters can have some corrections to their form. But low back pain can be from lots of sources…you are right there… anyway… first he should have not lost the weight… should have rethought his plan and counter attacked. Gotten stronger and used the extra weight to his advantage… instead he went from one stupid extreme to another extreme… Ignorance and stupidity and NO COMMON SENSE as you keep mouthing off. The former MR Universe of years ago, Bruce Randall bulked up to over 400 lbs, gained lots of muscle and strength…then cut down to under 200 lbs…regained to 225 and won Mr. Universe… That is how it is done… this Narcis did many things wrong…when you eat alot and train hard you GAIN… I did it…lots of guys have done it…

[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
you said…Bullshit. This is what I’m talking about. This is exactly why he thinks he …has some genetically predetermined body type without taking all the other factors that lead to his current state into consideration.

I agree…he is confused about his bodytype…and I agree that overeating and getting FAT led to his current condition…this is not an issue.

you said…But how the fuck can you tell what is fit for his structure by looking at 3 pictures? His complaints of lower back pain? 5 months in a caloric deficit and eventually dropping to near “starvation mode”, as he calls it, will do that to you.

obviously for me to totally understand this guy, I would have to meet him in person and see his structure and exercise form. Like I said… I tried to do with what info was available to me… It is entirely possible he could progress with REGULAR training done right… and I base his low back pain on improper form…because even elite lifters can have some corrections to their form. But low back pain can be from lots of sources…you are right there… anyway… first he should have not lost the weight… should have rethought his plan and counter attacked. Gotten stronger and used the extra weight to his advantage… instead he went from one stupid extreme to another extreme… Ignorance and stupidity and NO COMMON SENSE as you keep mouthing off.[/quote]

I never called him stupid, nor do I believe he is stupid. I said he is not using common sense. A person’s common sense and ability to evaluate a situation objectively can be overrided by unfounded beliefs that are deeply ingrained in them from bullshit constantly regurgitated by the masses. This is why I have tried to SIMPLIFY all this for him with the use of slightly provocative language so that he figures it out by himself.