T Nation

Looking for Advice on Cycle

I am 32, 5’11" 200 pounds with 9% bodyfat. Looking to add some size and surpass my genetic potential. Been lifting for 10 years. My first cycle was oral only consisting of tbol/anavar which I won’t repeat however I did put on 5 pounds. (after PCT weight)

I am currently looking at

1-4 Dbol 50mg/d split up
5-12 Winny 50mg/d
1-10 Sustanon 500mg/wk
10-12 Sustanon 250mg/wk
1-12 Armidex .25mg/eod

And this is the fist place I get confused on the test taper protocol, I have read that post about 10 times now and don’t fully understand it. I also have test e if needed.

PCT:

1-2 Clomid 50mg/d
1-4 Tamox 20mg/d

Thank you very much in advance!

bump

Not an expert on the test taper method always seemed like to much hassle to me. I am not saying it doesnt work however just not my area of expertise.

If this is your first legit “pinning” cycle I would stick with test e to lessen injection frequency. Not a lot of love around here for sust although I use it for cutting weight which is not very often. I have to run very high end doses ED or EOD for it to work though.

Nothing wrong with a dbol kick start.

8 weeks is a long winny run though. Not saying it would be super toxic just that its 12 weeks of orals with no break for your liver. I run orals up to 150mg a day sometimes but never longer than 3-4 weeks with an equal rest period as well.

Who knows your joints may not hurt but mine begin to feel winny around the 14 day mark and my lifts begin to be decline.

Maybe run week 1-4 dbol, week 8-12 winny.

I would also run the test higher given your weight and 10 years lifting experience, @750mg or so.

test taper makes no logical sense whatsoever… ur just keeping yourself suppressed on lower doses… 250mg will suppress u just as bad as 500mg…

id drop the winny too, nothing to gain, and ull fuck up your lipids more than i care to tell u. if u want to use more orals, run dbol for longer… winny is terrible

also use test E not sustanon

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
test taper makes no logical sense whatsoever… [/quote]

I disagree. In this case (AAS use for bodybuilding purposes) the tapering method makes PERFECT sense. How can one expect their body to go from more then a hundred fold of Testosterone to zero without any sort of mental or physical impact?
Yes the ester offers a taper in itself but IMO its not long enough. I think the body needs time to adjust to decreasing levels and resensitise its androgen receptors.

Besides tapering is a common practise in the medical industry.

SB

Ok in that case I’ll drop the winny. However I would like to run something with the test, any suggestions? From what Ive read eq sounds amazing except for the 8 weeks before it kicks in. Deca I would be worried about deca dick. Tren also sounds amazing but I don’t know much about it and from what I’ve read its for really experienced users. Thanks again

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
test taper makes no logical sense whatsoever… [/quote]

resensitise its androgen receptors.

[/quote]

oh god my sides

[quote]urameshi wrote:
Ok in that case I’ll drop the winny. However I would like to run something with the test, any suggestions? From what Ive read eq sounds amazing except for the 8 weeks before it kicks in. Deca I would be worried about deca dick. Tren also sounds amazing but I don’t know much about it and from what I’ve read its for really experienced users. Thanks again[/quote]

if your goals are mass gain, EQ is anything but amazing.

if you run a 19nor like nandrolone/trenbolone, you will need a dopamine agonist like caber/prami to combat elevated prolactin and avoid “deca/fina dick”

i would recommend npp if your goals are size/strength gains

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between npp and deca?

[quote]urameshi wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between npp and deca?[/quote]

Different esters.

And I agree with tapering, I tapered off slowly my last cycle and it was very different from just stopping. No libido loss, no bacne, no mood swings, and recovery seemed a lot faster this time. Agrees 250mg is suppressive as 500mg, but shooting 500-1000mg a week then to nothing is different then slowly tapering off

I second pretty much what Mr walkaway has said, other than I have tappered in the past when I wasn’t going to run pct, I stepped down before I came off, but I bounce back real Quick,thats just me, this is stuff you’ll learn about your own body, after a couple cycles

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
test taper makes no logical sense whatsoever… [/quote]

resensitise its androgen receptors.

[/quote]

oh god my sides[/quote]

Ok not to start the androgen receptor desensitisation debate now, IMO the taper works hands-down.

SB

Funny how you did not comment on all my other points also.

SB

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
Funny how you did not comment on all my other points also.

SB[/quote]

your entire post was based on the desensitizing and resensitizing of androgen receptors…

how can keeping your natural test suppressed longer (with lower and lower dosages) possibly help recovery?

a dose as low as 100mg/week will keep you completely supressed lmao

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
a dose as low as 100mg/week will keep you completely supressed lmao[/quote]

Evidence? Please post the study.

SB

FTW 1000 posts!

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
a dose as low as 100mg/week will keep you completely supressed lmao[/quote]

Evidence? Please post the study.

SB

FTW 1000 posts![/quote]

are you saying that you dont think a full replacement dose of test (100mg of test E = 72mg of hormone) will not cause the body to shut of it’s own production?

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
a dose as low as 100mg/week will keep you completely supressed lmao[/quote]

Evidence? Please post the study.

SB

FTW 1000 posts![/quote]

are you saying that you dont think a full replacement dose of test (100mg of test E = 72mg of hormone) will not cause the body to shut of it’s own production?[/quote]

In combination with SERM therapy (as used in bodybuilding PCT), no.

SB

These are real world results, for my money way better than studys, I personaly don’t need any PCt even after 3mth of 1000 test E a week, I’m back to normal in 3 weeks, but I wouldn’t recomend this to anyone. Point is were all different with gear, so I like to here what works and does’nt work, for real people, I do taper myself, but I’m inclined to think it’s a waste of time, there’s no really way to know, because I bounce back either way. lol, There are no studys when it comes to mixing gear, these forms are it

Ok I’m sold on the test taper but still really confused on it, if someone would be so kind as to build one for my cycle it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]urameshi wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between npp and deca?[/quote]

Different esters.

And I agree with tapering, I tapered off slowly my last cycle and it was very different from just stopping. No libido loss, no bacne, no mood swings, and recovery seemed a lot faster this time. Agrees 250mg is suppressive as 500mg, but shooting 500-1000mg a week then to nothing is different then slowly tapering off [/quote]

Missed this post, BUDs summed up my views exactly here.

In regards to your taper, if you are going to use test E a ‘stasis’ period of 6 weeks is recommended by Prisoner, 4 weeks for shorter esters such as propionate.
In the stasis period you would remain at 100mg/wk in conjuction with your SERM therapy, then taper off another 4-5 weeks dropping the dose every week.
In the stasis period you would cease any AI and hCG usage.

SB