[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Wow Rob still shutdown? How longs it been now?
In regards to your post, it has been speculated that clomid has some properties that nolva does not, however I have used both in all combinations and it doesnt seem to be any difference except depression from clomid.
So go with nolva its fine Rob.
The hCG shots, I personally feel the doses are too low to elicit any sort of stimulatory response on the testes. I had to do shots of 2500iu EOD to see any sign of recovery on my previous cycle. My theory is that using hCG doses at LH-replacement dose is not going to stimulate the atrophied testes. You must bring the testes to life first with high doses and then do a SERM PCT, i actually did an AI. And it actually worked.
I feel when the testicles are atrophied they will not respond to low dose as the leydig cells will be atrophied.
Although what MG states is also create and I have utmost respect from him, I just dont agree with the such low dose hCG.
Regarding the Trip, I feel you dont need it. Ive used it and it didnt work for me, my levels still stayed the same.
You’re right, an LH replacement dose will no stimulate the testes enough for recovery if they have severely atrophied. The dosing protocol I advocate of 300IU a day is much higher than that. You wanted instant results, which you will get by bumping the dose up. If you follow 300IU per day for up to the 30 days reccomended you will see your testes come back online, just not as fast. You do run the risk of desensitisation with a higher dose.
How you dilute your HCG also has an effect on how potent it is. The more concentrated the solution, the stronger the effect it seems to have. There are studies that have documented this effect with subcutaneous injections of HGH but not hcg, but from personal experience I am sure it makes a big difference.
And I wouldn’t rule out the trip for rob, he’s been shutdown such a long time it might be exactly what he needs. Along with D aspartic acid.[/quote]
Ya I see what you were saying in your previous post about the AI after the SERM prolonging the time before the HPTA can function on its own, I guess my logic is that I should have recovered by now on my own anyway - but maybe after the SERM stimulation my system will be reconditioned and ready to take over once I come off. My worry was that my HPTA might be very fragile even after the SERM run and the idea KSman seems to have offered in other threads is that the AI can help to continue to shield the HPTA from negative feedback for a while as it gets used to working again. I need to re-read his posts but the suggestion was that it is easier for the HPTA to take over by itself from an AI taper than it is from a SERM taper.
The HCG seems like a sensitive drug to use but probably necessary for me to start on. Based on what you guys and others have said, I’ll probably start with a slightly higher dose for a couple of shots and then drop to the 250 iu EOD and gauge responsiveness. This way I can keep the level as low as possible and only increase as much as necessary to gain the desired effect. Not sure what increments I should move up in if I do have to increase, or where I should cap the dosage at to avoid desensitizing the testes, but I’ll prob edge up by 50 IUs at a time.
- Regarding the HCG dilution, I think the stuff I’m ordering comes 5000 IUs of powder in a 10 mL bottle, sterile & sealed w/ rubber stopper. No bac water though so I was planning on just injecting 10 mL bac water straight into the vial to yield a concentration of 500 IUs/mL - then I can just shoot 1/2 mL slin pin shots for my 250 IUs. Would it be better to use less bac water for a more concentrated solution? Maybe 5 mLs for a concentration of 1000 IUs/mL?
DAA is something I’ve dabbled with to try to get some temporary relief while I’ve been shutdown. On separate occasions I’ve felt the effects very noticeably at a couple of points after a two or three days on but the feeling disappeared almost the next day. Since I know my estrogen is pretty low and T couldn’t have increased by a crazy amount - this makes me wonder if my set point has been lowered for the point at which estrogen causes inhibition at the hypothalamus and/or pituitary. I don’t know if this is even possible but it could explain why I haven’t recovered yet and why I stop feeling the benefits of supps like DAA very quickly. I’m not sure but I think an extended SERM run might be able to reverse a change like this - but don’t quote me on that one.
I think the DAA could be a good add in for after I come off everything, for a little extra support, but I want to understand it’s mechanism of action a little bit better before I throw it in at that delicate time.[/quote]
I don’t mean to be rude but I’d like to point a few things out. You are really overanalysing this faffing. I don’t mind giving advice out, I actually like helping people out but why does everyone feel the need to adjust the protocols given to them for dubious reasons at best? You have a protocol ready to go which does everything you want. SERM for LH and recovery and keeping estrogen in check, HCG to get the testes running and you have a time frame and the option of cutting it short before the maximum 30 days assuming you have significant evidence of recovery.
Where is your rationale for switching to 250IU EOD, because you’ll run less risk of desensitisation? if 300iU per day causes no desensitisation, what possible benefit is this giving you? Its just providing less stimulation to the testes, possibly jeopardising your recovery. There are good reasons why that protocol works as it is, and why you are supposed to get bloodwork done at the specified intervals, its a mugs game going on feel for recovery. If you get the bloodwork done at each stage, you can accurately and objectively track your recovery.
Running any AI with a normal endocrine system can tank your libido rapidly since some estrogen is necessary for proper endocrine function. Fucking about for longer than neccessary is exactly what you want to avoid.
Take my advice, you wont be sorry, and I’d dilute your HCG at 1mL per 1000IU.
Please don’t think I am under-appreciating your advice, your protocol looks very intelligent and it is most likely the one I will proceed with - maybe with very minor adjustments, maybe none at all. I am not one to arbitrarily change an effective plan someone is kind enough to offer to me, I am simply trying to effectively take the advice I’ve been given by those who have shown to be the most knowledgeable, and utilize it optimally and safely.
Regarding the HCG dose, my rationale for wanting to start from the lower 250 iu EOD is minimizing risk of desensitization, as you suggest. I have read a lot of posts and studies regarding HCG dosing, many found or linked to from the TRT forum - the recurring conclusion being that 250 iu EOD is an effective dose which does not risk LH desensitization. This is the reason I would prefer to start from this lower dose and move up from there, as high as 300 iu ED which I don’t see as being excessive either and I’m sure is probably relatively safe as well. I don’t see anything wrong with starting at a low but proven effective dose for safety’s sake and slowly increasing by only as much as is needed. If the lower dose is effective for me, which I believe it will be, then why take any more? However, if needed I can always up the dose.
With the AI, I have been shutdown for a very long time, almost a year and a half - I may not recover. This PCT is not immediately or even closely following a steroid cycle, it is more like a restart. The cycle that shut me down was a long time ago and I fucked myself over by losing the PCT I had ready and not having access to anything else. My HPTA has been compromised and is not functioning properly. I don’t know what kind of shape my axis is actually in, but it may need every bit of extra support it can get. I have almost zero libido as is, so adding in the AI to keep my pituitary pumping out some LH after I go off the SERM is no biggie for me if I don’t have a killer sex drive - if it is easier for my HPTA to take over on its own coming off an AI than it is coming off a SERM, then this might be the best option for me. I admit though, I don’t know if this is the case, and if it turns out it’s not then I probably don’t need the AI - these are the things I’m trying to sort out right now.
Whatever I can do to support my system and run the best recovery possible is what I need to do. If I’d only been shutdown for a few extra weeks after finishing a cycle then I wouldn’t be as concerned or as focused on the smaller details, but I don’t think I have any other choice at this point.
I want to stress again, I deeply value your help and the help and knowledge everyone else has shared with me so far. I think I have a good shot at recovery if I am smart about what I’m doing, and these forums have enabled me to learn a lot. Thank you again for all you’ve offered so far.[/quote]
I hope I didn’t come across as too harsh. Tapering off AI’s can be a pain in the ass, dosing them correctly is hard to do, you need to know.
If you think your HPTA is fragile, what good will it do you if you get an estrogen rebound from your AI taper and shut yourself down again. Less is more. If you want to run the AI instead of the SERM then I guess you could do that, but then I’ve never done that for PCT. I would definately try the tripto if I were in your situation. I hope you’ve got a plan now, and let us now how you get on.