T Nation

Long Shutdown, Tripto+SERM PCT?

Hey guys,

I’m suffering from prolonged shutdown right now and trying to come up with the tightest recovery plan possible. I have not just had “bad luck” I probably put myself at greater risk of lasting shutdown through my own foolishness when I was younger, using AAS carelessly and without proper knowledge. Unfortunately, after learning more about proper cycling and PCT, etc. and deciding to try and squeeze in one last cycle before moving to a new city w/ my gf, I did hit some bad luck and the last leg of my cycle plus Nolva were stolen from my friends place where I was stashing all my stuff.

I was running: Anavar @ 80mg ED + Dbol @ 50mg ED for 4 wks then just Anavar for additional 3 wks, if I recall correctly I got to around week 6. (I know oral only cycles are considered dumb by many, I did this cycle for the wrong reasons - I just don’t want to pay for it for the rest of my life).

This was all just about 18 months ago, shutdown seemed to be only minor initially and then became really bad more than 6 months after going off cycle (weird no? although may have been exacerbated by stress at that point).

Symptoms have generally improved very slightly from what they were at the worst but still feel like shit. Oddly, over the last 10 months or so I’ve been experiencing transient improvements lasting from 1-4 days and occurring usually about once or twice a month. During these periods I have better energy/strength, sex drive, nuts hanging instead of trying to climb back inside me and slight size improvement on them as well.

^^This suggests to me that decent pulses of LH are occasionally still being sent to my nuts which are then responding somewhat > ie. hypogonadism is secondary and may be reversible if I’m extremely fucking lucky

*PERSONAL INFO

-age > 27

-height > 5’10

-waist > 30"

-weight > 188 lbs

I’ll try to keep the rest short and just stick to some concepts and questions, I have some more info over in a thread I started in the TRT forum, if it’ll help:

MOST RECENT BLOODS:
FEB 24/2012, (940 AM)

(hope conversions are accurate please alert me if anything looks off, chem 101 was a long time ago

DHEAS 9.0 umol/L [<17.5], or 33.16 ng/mL [<64.48] … not sure, prob less than ideal?

B12 422 pmol/L [>150], or 521.857 pg/mL [>203.2520]

Cortisol, AM 324 nmol/L [120-620], or 11.743 ug/dL [4.349-22.472]… no idea, seems mid range

Estradiol 59 pmol/L [<200], or 16.072 pg/mL [<54.481] … seems slightly low from what I’ve read? (ideal 20-24?)

Ferritin 134 ug/L [12-300] (equivalent in pg/mL), or 134,000 ng/mL [12,000-300,000]

FSH 2.1 U/L [<7.0] … lower than previous

LH 2.2 U/L [<12.0] … lower than previous - these 2 concern me and suggest the prob is at hypothalamus or pituitary

Prolactin 7.0 ug/L [<21.0]

Progesterone 1.3 nmol/L [<3.0], or 408.8 ng/dL [<943.38]

Test (total) 12.1 nmol/L [10.3-29.5], or 349.00 ng/dL [297.08-850.86] … up about 30 pts from 320, prob just a fluctuation

TSH 2.94 mU/L … highish, elevated from last test

PROPOSED RESTART PROTOCOL:

Begin w/ low dose HCG to resensitize the testes to higher levels of LH that are still w/in the physiological range. Follow up w/ SERM for LH & FSH release stimulating effects, preferably Tamoxifen along w/ an appropriate AI to inhibit any additional receptor down-regulation from increased E levels. Taper slowly off SERM and adjust AI accordingly. Continue AI for 4 additional weeks after SERM ends

This would entail:
WK 1-3(?)*HCG @ 250iu EOD (frontload?), run 3 weeks or until testes have recovered size and firmness
*Arimidex @ .25mg EOD
WK 4-8(?)*Nolva @ 10mg ED or 20 mg EOD (FL?)
*Arimidex @ .25mg EOD
WK 9 *Nolva @ 10mg EOD
*Arimidex @ .125mg EOD
WK 10-14 *Arimidex @ .125mg EOD

EDIT - forgot to mention I was considering using aromasin rather than adex concurrently w/ the nolva to avoid the negative interaction between adex & nolva

^^ ?'s regarding the above -

  1. Should I expect to run the HCG for a longer period since I’ve been at low production for awhile, and it may take longer to resensitize the testes to LH? Would it serve my recovery better to do this for a minimum period of time or should I switch to SERM as soon as the testes have responded significantly?

  2. Should I frontload the HCG or the Nolva?

  3. Should I be starting the A’dex right out of the gate with the HCG or just have on hand? And is 5 weeks on Nolva long enough?

  4. I think the doses and timelines here stick to pretty modest doses that should avoid any extra suppression as much as possible, but please let me know if I’m under or overdosing something or running anything too long

Thanks for any help guys, I appreciate any insights you can offer

I would first attempt a SERM only PCT and then get blood work done and see where you are at. Your test levels are ‘normal’ but on the lower end and for a 27 year old this can cause problems. Your oestrogen isnt elevated so the problem is not oestrogen suppression.

LH and FSH are low also but these might improve with a SERM PCT. Are your testes atrophied? I found that when I had testicular atrophy even though my LH was mid-normal my test was still low, this suggested that my testes were not responding to the LH pulse. I blasted hCG 2500iu 3x/wk for 1 week, but that was AFTER I tried a long SERM PCT and also Triptorelin. Trip is something you may want to look into.

SB

I agree with the Singh: don’t bother with hCG. I think it’ll probably defeat or weaken the overall purpose by incorporating it at this point. While the LH reading might not be perfectly accurate, the fact that it’s low suggests a lack of signal. You’re only guessing at the loss of sensitivity, not that the latter couldn’t be a co-existing factor. If you insist on using it, it’s not something to be frontloaded. Any dose provides a signal; you don’t need to establish a steady state level.

While not particularly pleasant for some, I recommend clomid over nolva. I know that opinions on the SERM of choice are like assholes but there’s a pretty decent paper on it (Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, Am J Physiol, 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30 by E. Y. Adashi et al.) that you might want to track down. I’d probably run it for at least 8 weeks, given the length of time that you’ve been affected. You don’t need to dose it high, though you can frontload a SERM if you want (in answer to your 2nd question).

Oh yeah, there’s absolutely no need for an AI given your current bloodwork. When things get going for you again, add in an AI if subsequent bloodwork suggests a need. Keep it simple.

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
I would first attempt a SERM only PCT and then get blood work done and see where you are at. Your test levels are ‘normal’ but on the lower end and for a 27 year old this can cause problems. Your oestrogen isnt elevated so the problem is not oestrogen suppression.

LH and FSH are low also but these might improve with a SERM PCT. Are your testes atrophied? I found that when I had testicular atrophy even though my LH was mid-normal my test was still low, this suggested that my testes were not responding to the LH pulse. I blasted hCG 2500iu 3x/wk for 1 week, but that was AFTER I tried a long SERM PCT and also Triptorelin. Trip is something you may want to look into.

SB[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback SB,

Yes it appears estrogen is in check and not what is causing the problem, think my system is just shut down still from previous suppression. Bc I have never had any sign of gyno type issues even through stupid cycles, I suspect my body is not prone to over aromatizing. I’m just considering the possible need to control estrogen while doing the restart/PCT - as it may climb significantly and preventing inhibition from E at that point might serve for a more successful PCT, especially if I can keep it down after cessation of SERM when my system is “on its own.”

My boys are significantly atrophied although not completely miniscule yet. The worst is when they’re drawn up tight and close to the body, which is often --> low LH. I see what you mean about your T being basement level while LH was mid normal; my T appears to be more proportionate to my LH when I compare across my two most recent blood panels - both values are fairly well shit. So I guess there’s no direct evidence that the testes are desensitized, although I was interested in using the HCG to bring back the size a bit, and I figured due to the length of shutdown there would be a degree of desensitization.

I am VERY interested in trip, but so far I’m figuring on trying it on its own after the SERM run (if needed obviously). This is only bc there’s not a lot of info out there on the stuff and I haven’t been able to learn that much about it yet - figured I’d try the more established SERM & maybe HCG route before the trip. Also, sourcing seems to be a bit of an issue with the stuff - if anyone is comfortable with a recommendation via PM it would be more than welcome!

[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
I agree with the Singh: don’t bother with hCG. I think it’ll probably defeat or weaken the overall purpose by incorporating it at this point. While the LH reading might not be perfectly accurate, the fact that it’s low suggests a lack of signal. You’re only guessing at the loss of sensitivity, not that the latter couldn’t be a co-existing factor. If you insist on using it, it’s not something to be frontloaded. Any dose provides a signal; you don’t need to establish a steady state level.

While not particularly pleasant for some, I recommend clomid over nolva. I know that opinions on the SERM of choice are like assholes but there’s a pretty decent paper on it (Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, Am J Physiol, 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30 by E. Y. Adashi et al.) that you might want to track down. I’d probably run it for at least 8 weeks, given the length of time that you’ve been affected. You don’t need to dose it high, though you can frontload a SERM if you want (in answer to your 2nd question).

Oh yeah, there’s absolutely no need for an AI given your current bloodwork. When things get going for you again, add in an AI if subsequent bloodwork suggests a need. Keep it simple.[/quote]

Thanks for your insights Who,

Although I was initially under the impression HCG would be integral to my recovery, I am not at all insistent on using it if it is not the best route for me. I figured due to my atrophy and long shutdown it would be good to use the HCG to bring back size and re-accustom the testes to responding to higher LH levels so that a SERM run will be more immediately effective (part of my logic - even if they can respond to what my body’s sending now, maybe it would take time for them to respond to a greater signal). Of course this is largely speculative, but my interest in starting with HCG also comes from recommendations from KSman and others in the TRT forum - these were pertaining to guys attempting restarts before resorting TRT, or coming off and trying to resume normal production > in both cases long periods of shutdown, like my case.

Given the recent recommendations from you guys though, I will definitely have to consider whether SERM only may serve me better. And if not, I guess I could always try it again with the HCG to start right? I don’t think my chances of restarting decrease with unsuccessful attempts.

Huge thanks for the citation you’ve included above, I am still open minded about Clomid as I know it too works, and am very interested to read the study. Initially I was planning to use clomid bc it is well established and seems to have a greater extent of literature documenting its use. What swayed me was the piece written by William Lewellyn, found here if anyone hasn’t read it yet: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/nolvadex_post_cycle_1
Basically he’s saying that evidence exists that Nolva has been shown to increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH, and also that Clomid may actually act as a weak estrogen at the pituitary although it is strongly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus - hence its T increasing effects. This apparent advantage, plus the lower reported sides with Nolva (and lower dosing) is what has me interested.

As far as the AI, I agree with what you’re saying based on current E2 levels. My logic for including the AI in my protocol though is strictly based on keeping E2 levels down at that point, as a SERM is expected to increase E2. This would just be an add-on to help prevent inhibition from E2 and let the HPTA get rolling again. However, I see your angle about keeping it simple - may be best to just have on hand and use according to blood results during the run.

While I’m figuring my restart protocol out and trying to line up sourcing, I figured I’d try a little DAA for some relief. I had picked some up a while back but then left it alone as I thought I would soon be kicking off my restart with a Dr. However, I have just learned it will take 5 more months to get into the clinic = on my own.

Anyways, 3 days on DAA @ 3.2 g ED taken am on empty stomach, by the third night (last night) all of a sudden after returning from walking the dog I felt significant increase in energy, libido, well being, mental clarity & focus. All these effects were quite pronounced and I honestly felt amazing. It made me want my higher T production back ASAP, so I need to remember now to remain objective and follow the plan that will serve me best. Unfortunately, this AM I was back to feeling tired and shitty, even after my DAA dose which I haven’t felt at all today. Looks like the DAA will not even be a temporary answer for me as I had hoped.

All this said, I think I’ve found a well regarded source up here in Canada for RCs, and I’m strongly considering their Triptorelin on its own as an option for my recovery. I feel like I’m being impatient by not going the longer but more established SERM route, would this be foolish? I know there’s at least a couple well respected guys around these forums who seem to use trip for PCT, if you guys are around any advice or experience would be immensely appreciated.

I use a really good research company but I’m not sure if it’s frowned upon to post them…

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
I use a really good research company but I’m not sure if it’s frowned upon to post them…[/quote]

Thanks for your reply RDS,

I believe it is somewhat frowned upon unless the company owner is openly promoting it himself, as some have done in the past on here. Perhaps I could PM you if that’s alright? That way you can share as much or as little as you’re comfortable with.

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
I use a really good research company but I’m not sure if it’s frowned upon to post them…[/quote]

Thanks for your reply RDS,

I believe it is somewhat frowned upon unless the company owner is openly promoting it himself, as some have done in the past on here. Perhaps I could PM you if that’s alright? That way you can share as much or as little as you’re comfortable with.[/quote]

yeah mate PM away

Alright, I’m still researching so any due flaming is understood, but I’m starting to lean pretty heavily towards running some triptorelin. It’s sounded like promising stuff since I first heard of it but I’ve been reluctant due to relatively little existing literature on its use for these purposes and bc of sourcing challenges.

Reading posts from at least a couple of well respected guys in this forum advocating it for PCT has been very persuasive for me to use it now that I’ve located a good source. The famous case study on pubmed with the bodybuilder’s cinderella story didn’t hurt either, although for all we know his results aren’t typical. However, there’s another example over in the HRT forum where a guy w/ low T (and I suspect a degree of primary hypogonadism, although I couldn’t find his LH values in the thread) was treated w/ trip only and had results of starting to climb in the right direction.

Reading stuff from the 2 guys I mentioned re: PCT, if I am correct it looks like both these guys have successfully used tripto in conjunction w/ SERM for PCT. I’m still trying to learn the science involved but to me it seems logical that this would be a synergistic combination:

1> the 100mcg dose of tripto creates a strong GnRH signal to the pituitary -> release LH & FSH which subsequently cause increased T synthesis and spermatogenesis via WORKING testes

2> the SERM facilitates this effect by blocking negative feedback of Estrogen on the hypothalamus & pituitary - allowing the tripto to work to its full extent, and if using Nolvadex, may actually amplify the effect by increasing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (if that is actually what happens).

3> continuing PCT w/ SERM keeps things rolling by preventing inhibition from E on the hypothalamus and pituitary and making them think that they need to increase LH to increase T which will ultimately increase E through aromatization. My understanding of SERM PCT is that it fosters HPTA recovery in part by sort of “exercising” the loop - getting it used to functioning again.

4> during or immediately after tapering of SERM, low dose AI might be useful to prevent rebound inhibition from Estrogen once the HPTA is “on its own again” and now able to “see” estrogen which may also still be elevated.

**Pending sorting out a possible thyroid issue, this is the logic I’ll be basing my restart PCT protocol on, so I’ll be grateful for insights or critique anyone can offer - especially any of the heavy hitters in here with knowledge or experience with using triptorelin :wink:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Alright, I’m still researching so any due flaming is understood, but I’m starting to lean pretty heavily towards running some triptorelin. It’s sounded like promising stuff since I first heard of it but I’ve been reluctant due to relatively little existing literature on its use for these purposes and bc of sourcing challenges.

Reading posts from at least a couple of well respected guys in this forum advocating it for PCT has been very persuasive for me to use it now that I’ve located a good source. The famous case study on pubmed with the bodybuilder’s cinderella story didn’t hurt either, although for all we know his results aren’t typical. However, there’s another example over in the HRT forum where a guy w/ low T (and I suspect a degree of primary hypogonadism, although I couldn’t find his LH values in the thread) was treated w/ trip only and had results of starting to climb in the right direction.

Reading stuff from the 2 guys I mentioned re: PCT, if I am correct it looks like both these guys have successfully used tripto in conjunction w/ SERM for PCT. I’m still trying to learn the science involved but to me it seems logical that this would be a synergistic combination:

1> the 100mcg dose of tripto creates a strong GnRH signal to the pituitary -> release LH & FSH which subsequently cause increased T synthesis and spermatogenesis via WORKING testes

2> the SERM facilitates this effect by blocking negative feedback of Estrogen on the hypothalamus & pituitary - allowing the tripto to work to its full extent, and if using Nolvadex, may actually amplify the effect by increasing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (if that is actually what happens).

3> continuing PCT w/ SERM keeps things rolling by preventing inhibition from E on the hypothalamus and pituitary and making them think that they need to increase LH to increase T which will ultimately increase E through aromatization. My understanding of SERM PCT is that it fosters HPTA recovery in part by sort of “exercising” the loop - getting it used to functioning again.

4> during or immediately after tapering of SERM, low dose AI might be useful to prevent rebound inhibition from Estrogen once the HPTA is “on its own again” and now able to “see” estrogen which may also still be elevated.

**Pending sorting out a possible thyroid issue, this is the logic I’ll be basing my restart PCT protocol on, so I’ll be grateful for insights or critique anyone can offer - especially any of the heavy hitters in here with knowledge or experience with using triptorelin ;)[/quote]

If your testes are significantly atrophied they will not respond to normal amounts of LH. HCG is NOT suppressive of normal testosterone levels WHEN USED CORRECTLY. Neither will it desensitise your testes IF USED CORRECTLY

Run the following

Days 1-60 SERM ED either 50mg clomid OR 20mg Nolva for two months
Days 1-30 HCG 300iU ED
Day 30 Trip, if you are going to use it
Days 60-90 Taper off the SERM at half the dose

You can run the AI if you want but I would be mindful of the dose, esp if you use aromasin. You would run it alongside the serm and taper off it the same.

Get bloodwork done on days 30, 60 and 90 and report back

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Alright, I’m still researching so any due flaming is understood, but I’m starting to lean pretty heavily towards running some triptorelin. It’s sounded like promising stuff since I first heard of it but I’ve been reluctant due to relatively little existing literature on its use for these purposes and bc of sourcing challenges.

Reading posts from at least a couple of well respected guys in this forum advocating it for PCT has been very persuasive for me to use it now that I’ve located a good source. The famous case study on pubmed with the bodybuilder’s cinderella story didn’t hurt either, although for all we know his results aren’t typical. However, there’s another example over in the HRT forum where a guy w/ low T (and I suspect a degree of primary hypogonadism, although I couldn’t find his LH values in the thread) was treated w/ trip only and had results of starting to climb in the right direction.

Reading stuff from the 2 guys I mentioned re: PCT, if I am correct it looks like both these guys have successfully used tripto in conjunction w/ SERM for PCT. I’m still trying to learn the science involved but to me it seems logical that this would be a synergistic combination:

1> the 100mcg dose of tripto creates a strong GnRH signal to the pituitary -> release LH & FSH which subsequently cause increased T synthesis and spermatogenesis via WORKING testes

2> the SERM facilitates this effect by blocking negative feedback of Estrogen on the hypothalamus & pituitary - allowing the tripto to work to its full extent, and if using Nolvadex, may actually amplify the effect by increasing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (if that is actually what happens).

3> continuing PCT w/ SERM keeps things rolling by preventing inhibition from E on the hypothalamus and pituitary and making them think that they need to increase LH to increase T which will ultimately increase E through aromatization. My understanding of SERM PCT is that it fosters HPTA recovery in part by sort of “exercising” the loop - getting it used to functioning again.

4> during or immediately after tapering of SERM, low dose AI might be useful to prevent rebound inhibition from Estrogen once the HPTA is “on its own again” and now able to “see” estrogen which may also still be elevated.

**Pending sorting out a possible thyroid issue, this is the logic I’ll be basing my restart PCT protocol on, so I’ll be grateful for insights or critique anyone can offer - especially any of the heavy hitters in here with knowledge or experience with using triptorelin ;)[/quote]

If your testes are significantly atrophied they will not respond to normal amounts of LH. HCG is NOT suppressive of normal testosterone levels WHEN USED CORRECTLY. Neither will it desensitise your testes IF USED CORRECTLY

Run the following

Days 1-60 SERM ED either 50mg clomid OR 20mg Nolva for two months
Days 1-30 HCG 300iU ED
Day 30 Trip, if you are going to use it
Days 60-90 Taper off the SERM at half the dose

You can run the AI if you want but I would be mindful of the dose, esp if you use aromasin. You would run it alongside the serm and taper off it the same.

Get bloodwork done on days 30, 60 and 90 and report back
[/quote]

Big thanks for your advice MG,

Sorry I actually already tried to respond but it looks like my post never uploaded…
I was also of the mind that low dose HcG would be both safe and beneficial to use at the beginning to reverse the atrophy and improve responsiveness of the testes. This is likely what I’ll do, only change I might make is by starting administration with a bit of a lower dose, ie. 250 iU EOD, for first week or so and then increase as needed after gauging effectiveness. I would not exceed the 300 iUs you recommend. Likewise, I might end HCG treatment short of the full 30 days based on testicular response, ie. if size and firmness is restored I would cease HCG.

Regarding the tripto at day 30, do you recommend this timing because by then HCG is finished and theoretically has done its job to prepare the testes to be responsive to the resultant LH signal from the tripto’s pituitary stimulation, or is there actually also a benefit to running the SERM for a while before the tripto blast?

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Alright, I’m still researching so any due flaming is understood, but I’m starting to lean pretty heavily towards running some triptorelin. It’s sounded like promising stuff since I first heard of it but I’ve been reluctant due to relatively little existing literature on its use for these purposes and bc of sourcing challenges.

Reading posts from at least a couple of well respected guys in this forum advocating it for PCT has been very persuasive for me to use it now that I’ve located a good source. The famous case study on pubmed with the bodybuilder’s cinderella story didn’t hurt either, although for all we know his results aren’t typical. However, there’s another example over in the HRT forum where a guy w/ low T (and I suspect a degree of primary hypogonadism, although I couldn’t find his LH values in the thread) was treated w/ trip only and had results of starting to climb in the right direction.

Reading stuff from the 2 guys I mentioned re: PCT, if I am correct it looks like both these guys have successfully used tripto in conjunction w/ SERM for PCT. I’m still trying to learn the science involved but to me it seems logical that this would be a synergistic combination:

1> the 100mcg dose of tripto creates a strong GnRH signal to the pituitary -> release LH & FSH which subsequently cause increased T synthesis and spermatogenesis via WORKING testes

2> the SERM facilitates this effect by blocking negative feedback of Estrogen on the hypothalamus & pituitary - allowing the tripto to work to its full extent, and if using Nolvadex, may actually amplify the effect by increasing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (if that is actually what happens).

3> continuing PCT w/ SERM keeps things rolling by preventing inhibition from E on the hypothalamus and pituitary and making them think that they need to increase LH to increase T which will ultimately increase E through aromatization. My understanding of SERM PCT is that it fosters HPTA recovery in part by sort of “exercising” the loop - getting it used to functioning again.

4> during or immediately after tapering of SERM, low dose AI might be useful to prevent rebound inhibition from Estrogen once the HPTA is “on its own again” and now able to “see” estrogen which may also still be elevated.

**Pending sorting out a possible thyroid issue, this is the logic I’ll be basing my restart PCT protocol on, so I’ll be grateful for insights or critique anyone can offer - especially any of the heavy hitters in here with knowledge or experience with using triptorelin ;)[/quote]

If your testes are significantly atrophied they will not respond to normal amounts of LH. HCG is NOT suppressive of normal testosterone levels WHEN USED CORRECTLY. Neither will it desensitise your testes IF USED CORRECTLY

Run the following

Days 1-60 SERM ED either 50mg clomid OR 20mg Nolva for two months
Days 1-30 HCG 300iU ED
Day 30 Trip, if you are going to use it
Days 60-90 Taper off the SERM at half the dose

You can run the AI if you want but I would be mindful of the dose, esp if you use aromasin. You would run it alongside the serm and taper off it the same.

Get bloodwork done on days 30, 60 and 90 and report back
[/quote]

Big thanks for your advice MG,

Sorry I actually already tried to respond but it looks like my post never uploaded…
I was also of the mind that low dose HcG would be both safe and beneficial to use at the beginning to reverse the atrophy and improve responsiveness of the testes. This is likely what I’ll do, only change I might make is by starting administration with a bit of a lower dose, ie. 250 iU EOD, for first week or so and then increase as needed after gauging effectiveness. I would not exceed the 300 iUs you recommend. Likewise, I might end HCG treatment short of the full 30 days based on testicular response, ie. if size and firmness is restored I would cease HCG.

Regarding the tripto at day 30, do you recommend this timing because by then HCG is finished and theoretically has done its job to prepare the testes to be responsive to the resultant LH signal from the tripto’s pituitary stimulation, or is there actually also a benefit to running the SERM for a while before the tripto blast?[/quote]

Since trip is new on the block, the optimum way to use it is up in the air. In my mind it makes sense to have the testes up and running so they are responsive to your natural LH production when it starts up again. And yes there is a LH based benefit to running a SERM the whole way through.

With the HCG, 250 IU is fine. I will say that normally what I notice is that it takes up to a certain total threshhold dose before you notice it kick in, after about a week to ten days for me. I would personally run it a week longer than that point for myself, but in your case you want to know its worked before you end it prematurely, so if you want to shorten the run make sure you have bloodwork done thats confirmed your test is up and running BEFORE you cut it short or you’ll be extending recovery unecessarily or worse it may not work at all.

Ok so I’ve really let this thread fall off while I’ve been trying to do some research, but I’m reactivating it now in the hope of gaining a bit more of the amazing feedback I’ve received so far. Based on my latest research I’ve come to some conclusions but am still unclear about a few points:

  • will use low dose HCG (250 iu EOD) at beginning of treatment for roughly 4 weeks depending on responsiveness. Will run low dose arimidex (0.25mg - 0.5mg EOD) alongside the HCG to minimize aromatization and also the subsequent negative feedback from E at hypothalamus and pituitary (I realize intratesticular aromatization can’t be controlled).

    will cease arimidex at beginning of SERM run, may reintroduce at the end and continue after tapering off the nolva to shield the HPTA from E rebound and try to keep it running optimally once it’s “on its own.”

  • going with nolvadex for the SERM. So much conflicting information and opinions on whether nolva or clomid is more effective at stimulating the pituitary, I’ve just based this decision on the lower reported sides, lower effective dosage, lower cost, and the apparent effect of nolva increasing pituitary responsiveness to GnRH, increasing LH release as a result. It seems to me that if nolva isn’t going to do it for me clomid probably wouldn’t either, but I could be wrong.

  • will utilize 1 x 100mcg shot of triptorelin, not completely sure exactly where this should fit in. It seems the options are either to shoot it at the beginning of the SERM run, as a couple of guys here seem to have had good experiences with; or shoot it at the midway point of SERM treatment, as MG has suggested - the idea being that this would give increased synergy between the SERM and the trip due to already having some LH rolling down the axis. Both methods make sense to me, my only concern with shooting trip mid SERM is that it could possibly be overkill? I’m just not sure at what point increasing trip’s effect becomes counterproductive, I mean I know it’s used at much higher doses for chemical castration - not worried about that, but where does it start to work against us instead of for us?

^^ It would be invaluable if anyone in the know can weigh in on this last issue, especially anyone with some experience with triptorelin. Would love to hear from BBB or PTDave on this one, if either of you guys are around, but input from anybody is hugely appreciated. Thanks again to anyone who can help

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Ok so I’ve really let this thread fall off while I’ve been trying to do some research, but I’m reactivating it now in the hope of gaining a bit more of the amazing feedback I’ve received so far. Based on my latest research I’ve come to some conclusions but am still unclear about a few points:

  • will use low dose HCG (250 iu EOD) at beginning of treatment for roughly 4 weeks depending on responsiveness. Will run low dose arimidex (0.25mg - 0.5mg EOD) alongside the HCG to minimize aromatization and also the subsequent negative feedback from E at hypothalamus and pituitary (I realize intratesticular aromatization can’t be controlled).

    will cease arimidex at beginning of SERM run, may reintroduce at the end and continue after tapering off the nolva to shield the HPTA from E rebound and try to keep it running optimally once it’s “on its own.”

  • going with nolvadex for the SERM. So much conflicting information and opinions on whether nolva or clomid is more effective at stimulating the pituitary, I’ve just based this decision on the lower reported sides, lower effective dosage, lower cost, and the apparent effect of nolva increasing pituitary responsiveness to GnRH, increasing LH release as a result. It seems to me that if nolva isn’t going to do it for me clomid probably wouldn’t either, but I could be wrong.

  • will utilize 1 x 100mcg shot of triptorelin, not completely sure exactly where this should fit in. It seems the options are either to shoot it at the beginning of the SERM run, as a couple of guys here seem to have had good experiences with; or shoot it at the midway point of SERM treatment, as MG has suggested - the idea being that this would give increased synergy between the SERM and the trip due to already having some LH rolling down the axis. Both methods make sense to me, my only concern with shooting trip mid SERM is that it could possibly be overkill? I’m just not sure at what point increasing trip’s effect becomes counterproductive, I mean I know it’s used at much higher doses for chemical castration - not worried about that, but where does it start to work against us instead of for us?

^^ It would be invaluable if anyone in the know can weigh in on this last issue, especially anyone with some experience with triptorelin. Would love to hear from BBB or PTDave on this one, if either of you guys are around, but input from anybody is hugely appreciated. Thanks again to anyone who can help

[/quote]

If you run the SERM from the start, you wont have to worry about estrogen from the HCG affecting you, since it blocks estrogens action at the HTPA. As for the last issue, I personally feel that its best to shoot the trip at the end, after your testes are up and running, since you want maximum responsiveness when you kickstart your hormonal feedback loop. I can tell you from experience that that recovery protocol I’ve outlined has worked for me on very heavy cycles WITHOUT trip so give it a shot. And dont start f’ing around with an AI after you taper off the nolva, you will eventually have to taper off the AI simply extending the time you are on drugs. Just taper off the nolva. And you could try some DAA at this point its had some good feedback from some people.

On more thing, do you use opiate painkillers? Or viagra/cialis?

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Ok so I’ve really let this thread fall off while I’ve been trying to do some research, but I’m reactivating it now in the hope of gaining a bit more of the amazing feedback I’ve received so far. Based on my latest research I’ve come to some conclusions but am still unclear about a few points:

  • will use low dose HCG (250 iu EOD) at beginning of treatment for roughly 4 weeks depending on responsiveness. Will run low dose arimidex (0.25mg - 0.5mg EOD) alongside the HCG to minimize aromatization and also the subsequent negative feedback from E at hypothalamus and pituitary (I realize intratesticular aromatization can’t be controlled).

    will cease arimidex at beginning of SERM run, may reintroduce at the end and continue after tapering off the nolva to shield the HPTA from E rebound and try to keep it running optimally once it’s “on its own.”

  • going with nolvadex for the SERM. So much conflicting information and opinions on whether nolva or clomid is more effective at stimulating the pituitary, I’ve just based this decision on the lower reported sides, lower effective dosage, lower cost, and the apparent effect of nolva increasing pituitary responsiveness to GnRH, increasing LH release as a result. It seems to me that if nolva isn’t going to do it for me clomid probably wouldn’t either, but I could be wrong.

  • will utilize 1 x 100mcg shot of triptorelin, not completely sure exactly where this should fit in. It seems the options are either to shoot it at the beginning of the SERM run, as a couple of guys here seem to have had good experiences with; or shoot it at the midway point of SERM treatment, as MG has suggested - the idea being that this would give increased synergy between the SERM and the trip due to already having some LH rolling down the axis. Both methods make sense to me, my only concern with shooting trip mid SERM is that it could possibly be overkill? I’m just not sure at what point increasing trip’s effect becomes counterproductive, I mean I know it’s used at much higher doses for chemical castration - not worried about that, but where does it start to work against us instead of for us?

^^ It would be invaluable if anyone in the know can weigh in on this last issue, especially anyone with some experience with triptorelin. Would love to hear from BBB or PTDave on this one, if either of you guys are around, but input from anybody is hugely appreciated. Thanks again to anyone who can help

[/quote]

If you run the SERM from the start, you wont have to worry about estrogen from the HCG affecting you, since it blocks estrogens action at the HTPA. As for the last issue, I personally feel that its best to shoot the trip at the end, after your testes are up and running, since you want maximum responsiveness when you kickstart your hormonal feedback loop. I can tell you from experience that that recovery protocol I’ve outlined has worked for me on very heavy cycles WITHOUT trip so give it a shot. And dont start f’ing around with an AI after you taper off the nolva, you will eventually have to taper off the AI simply extending the time you are on drugs. Just taper off the nolva. And you could try some DAA at this point its had some good feedback from some people.

On more thing, do you use opiate painkillers? Or viagra/cialis?[/quote]

Thanks for some more great feedback MG,

Ya I definitely do like the looks of what you’ve outlined already, just trying to optimally work in all the information Ive read from the vets here at T-Nation, yourself included. An example would be the use of the arimidex, I’ve read quite a bit from KSman advocating low dose arimidex for guys coming off PCT or TRT trying to recover natural HPTA function. I’ll try reposting a couple of links or excerpts but basically it seems he’s saying that it’s easier for the system to land on low dose AI after tapering off SERM and then taper off the AI as well. It seems the suggestion is that it’s easier for the HPTA to take over by itself coming off an AI than it is tapering directly off the SERM.

I definitely agree its better to take less drugs, so these are the final kinds of issues I’m trying to sort out. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have a complete grasp on all this stuff so I’ve been trying to go as deep as possible in gaining the appropriate understanding. It may be though that I can’t get too much more academic with things and need to hurry up and move ahead with trying to recover - just don’t want to mess anything up that could ruin it. I’ve resisted up to this point because I don’t want to be annoying since everyone is helping on their own time here, but maybe I’ll PM KSman and ask if he can drop some additional words of wisdom to help straighten out the use of the AI. Since I’ve been shutdown so long I think I’d have a lot in common with guys attempting restarts or coming off TRT - a forum where I’ve done a lot of reading regarding restarts.

Regarding the opiates, no I dont use any painkillers of this sort - interested to know what the implication is though. Cialis however, yes I’ve used quite a bit of cialis fairly regularly over the last 18-24 months. I’ve used UGL stuff that was very good, pharma, and most recentl some really weak UGL and weak RC stuff. Is it bad to be using cialis? If it is I might be in trouble due to my low test and shit libido & unreliable erection quality.

Wow Rob still shutdown? How longs it been now?

In regards to your post, it has been speculated that clomid has some properties that nolva does not, however I have used both in all combinations and it doesnt seem to be any difference except depression from clomid.
So go with nolva its fine Rob.

The hCG shots, I personally feel the doses are too low to elicit any sort of stimulatory response on the testes. I had to do shots of 2500iu EOD to see any sign of recovery on my previous cycle. My theory is that using hCG doses at LH-replacement dose is not going to stimulate the atrophied testes. You must bring the testes to life first with high doses and then do a SERM PCT, i actually did an AI. And it actually worked.
I feel when the testicles are atrophied they will not respond to low dose as the leydig cells will be atrophied.

Although what MG states is also create and I have utmost respect from him, I just dont agree with the such low dose hCG.
Regarding the Trip, I feel you dont need it. Ive used it and it didnt work for me, my levels still stayed the same.

SB

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
Ok so I’ve really let this thread fall off while I’ve been trying to do some research, but I’m reactivating it now in the hope of gaining a bit more of the amazing feedback I’ve received so far. Based on my latest research I’ve come to some conclusions but am still unclear about a few points:

  • will use low dose HCG (250 iu EOD) at beginning of treatment for roughly 4 weeks depending on responsiveness. Will run low dose arimidex (0.25mg - 0.5mg EOD) alongside the HCG to minimize aromatization and also the subsequent negative feedback from E at hypothalamus and pituitary (I realize intratesticular aromatization can’t be controlled).

    will cease arimidex at beginning of SERM run, may reintroduce at the end and continue after tapering off the nolva to shield the HPTA from E rebound and try to keep it running optimally once it’s “on its own.”

  • going with nolvadex for the SERM. So much conflicting information and opinions on whether nolva or clomid is more effective at stimulating the pituitary, I’ve just based this decision on the lower reported sides, lower effective dosage, lower cost, and the apparent effect of nolva increasing pituitary responsiveness to GnRH, increasing LH release as a result. It seems to me that if nolva isn’t going to do it for me clomid probably wouldn’t either, but I could be wrong.

  • will utilize 1 x 100mcg shot of triptorelin, not completely sure exactly where this should fit in. It seems the options are either to shoot it at the beginning of the SERM run, as a couple of guys here seem to have had good experiences with; or shoot it at the midway point of SERM treatment, as MG has suggested - the idea being that this would give increased synergy between the SERM and the trip due to already having some LH rolling down the axis. Both methods make sense to me, my only concern with shooting trip mid SERM is that it could possibly be overkill? I’m just not sure at what point increasing trip’s effect becomes counterproductive, I mean I know it’s used at much higher doses for chemical castration - not worried about that, but where does it start to work against us instead of for us?

^^ It would be invaluable if anyone in the know can weigh in on this last issue, especially anyone with some experience with triptorelin. Would love to hear from BBB or PTDave on this one, if either of you guys are around, but input from anybody is hugely appreciated. Thanks again to anyone who can help

[/quote]

If you run the SERM from the start, you wont have to worry about estrogen from the HCG affecting you, since it blocks estrogens action at the HTPA. As for the last issue, I personally feel that its best to shoot the trip at the end, after your testes are up and running, since you want maximum responsiveness when you kickstart your hormonal feedback loop. I can tell you from experience that that recovery protocol I’ve outlined has worked for me on very heavy cycles WITHOUT trip so give it a shot. And dont start f’ing around with an AI after you taper off the nolva, you will eventually have to taper off the AI simply extending the time you are on drugs. Just taper off the nolva. And you could try some DAA at this point its had some good feedback from some people.

On more thing, do you use opiate painkillers? Or viagra/cialis?[/quote]

Thanks for some more great feedback MG,

Ya I definitely do like the looks of what you’ve outlined already, just trying to optimally work in all the information Ive read from the vets here at T-Nation, yourself included. An example would be the use of the arimidex, I’ve read quite a bit from KSman advocating low dose arimidex for guys coming off PCT or TRT trying to recover natural HPTA function. I’ll try reposting a couple of links or excerpts but basically it seems he’s saying that it’s easier for the system to land on low dose AI after tapering off SERM and then taper off the AI as well. It seems the suggestion is that it’s easier for the HPTA to take over by itself coming off an AI than it is tapering directly off the SERM.

I definitely agree its better to take less drugs, so these are the final kinds of issues I’m trying to sort out. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have a complete grasp on all this stuff so I’ve been trying to go as deep as possible in gaining the appropriate understanding. It may be though that I can’t get too much more academic with things and need to hurry up and move ahead with trying to recover - just don’t want to mess anything up that could ruin it. I’ve resisted up to this point because I don’t want to be annoying since everyone is helping on their own time here, but maybe I’ll PM KSman and ask if he can drop some additional words of wisdom to help straighten out the use of the AI. Since I’ve been shutdown so long I think I’d have a lot in common with guys attempting restarts or coming off TRT - a forum where I’ve done a lot of reading regarding restarts.

Regarding the opiates, no I dont use any painkillers of this sort - interested to know what the implication is though. Cialis however, yes I’ve used quite a bit of cialis fairly regularly over the last 18-24 months. I’ve used UGL stuff that was very good, pharma, and most recentl some really weak UGL and weak RC stuff. Is it bad to be using cialis? If it is I might be in trouble due to my low test and shit libido & unreliable erection quality.
[/quote]

No its not bad to be using cialis. Opiates inhibit LH recovery, there is some evidence that cialis and viagra actually boost test levels so that wont hurt. As for the AI, even if there is merit in it, look at it this way. If you taper off the serm for a month, then taper off an AI for a month, if you’d just finished after the SERM your body would likely have sorted itself out and youd have a stable endocrine system a month sooner. Its just extra time on the rollercoaster which you really want to be off ASAP to let your body stabilise itself and sort itself out, which it will.

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
Wow Rob still shutdown? How longs it been now?

In regards to your post, it has been speculated that clomid has some properties that nolva does not, however I have used both in all combinations and it doesnt seem to be any difference except depression from clomid.
So go with nolva its fine Rob.

The hCG shots, I personally feel the doses are too low to elicit any sort of stimulatory response on the testes. I had to do shots of 2500iu EOD to see any sign of recovery on my previous cycle. My theory is that using hCG doses at LH-replacement dose is not going to stimulate the atrophied testes. You must bring the testes to life first with high doses and then do a SERM PCT, i actually did an AI. And it actually worked.
I feel when the testicles are atrophied they will not respond to low dose as the leydig cells will be atrophied.

Although what MG states is also create and I have utmost respect from him, I just dont agree with the such low dose hCG.
Regarding the Trip, I feel you dont need it. Ive used it and it didnt work for me, my levels still stayed the same.

SB[/quote]

You’re right, an LH replacement dose will no stimulate the testes enough for recovery if they have severely atrophied. The dosing protocol I advocate of 300IU a day is much higher than that. You wanted instant results, which you will get by bumping the dose up. If you follow 300IU per day for up to the 30 days reccomended you will see your testes come back online, just not as fast. You do run the risk of desensitisation with a higher dose.

How you dilute your HCG also has an effect on how potent it is. The more concentrated the solution, the stronger the effect it seems to have. There are studies that have documented this effect with subcutaneous injections of HGH but not hcg, but from personal experience I am sure it makes a big difference.

And I wouldn’t rule out the trip for rob, he’s been shutdown such a long time it might be exactly what he needs. Along with D aspartic acid.

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
Wow Rob still shutdown? How longs it been now?

In regards to your post, it has been speculated that clomid has some properties that nolva does not, however I have used both in all combinations and it doesnt seem to be any difference except depression from clomid.
So go with nolva its fine Rob.

The hCG shots, I personally feel the doses are too low to elicit any sort of stimulatory response on the testes. I had to do shots of 2500iu EOD to see any sign of recovery on my previous cycle. My theory is that using hCG doses at LH-replacement dose is not going to stimulate the atrophied testes. You must bring the testes to life first with high doses and then do a SERM PCT, i actually did an AI. And it actually worked.
I feel when the testicles are atrophied they will not respond to low dose as the leydig cells will be atrophied.

Although what MG states is also create and I have utmost respect from him, I just dont agree with the such low dose hCG.
Regarding the Trip, I feel you dont need it. Ive used it and it didnt work for me, my levels still stayed the same.

SB[/quote]

Ya still shutdown pretty bad, may have improved very slightly but haven’t had any bloods for about a month now so hard to say - I doubt it’s much different though bc I’ve been shutdown for well over a year already with minimal recovery. Highest T levels have been tested at is around 350. However, I should point out there has been absolutely no PCT which is due to my own stupidity and a lot of bad luck. At least I haven’t run PCT and had no recovery so I think there’s still hope.

You may be right about the HCG dosing, I’m considering one or two 500 iu shots at the start and then continuing with replacement level dose and gauging effectiveness - if necessary maybe creeping up from there. I think the nolva should be effective for me, at least while I’m on it. But now that I have a good source for trip :slight_smile: I’m pretty interested in trying it, mostly because I’ve been shutdown for so long I think I could use the extra boost. It seems that at least two guys in this forum have done very well with trip in their PCT, and of course there’s the infamous Italian study. I thought you’d been pretty sure your trip was bunk though no? If it was legit and just did nothing that is pretty disheartening, but given what the stuff actually is I think that legit trip should be highly effective in most cases.

Your recovery success definitely gives me some hope because I know you were shutdown pretty hard, although certainly not this long. I appreciate the help you and others have offered so far, and I’ve been able to learn from the situation you pulled yourself out of, hopefully I’ll be able to do the same and if so I will be indebted to a lot of guys here on these forums.