Long-Distance Running and Weightlifting

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Scskowron, you beat me to it. Agree 100% on the lactic acid. Lactic acid gets cycled back into the Krebs cycle where it is used for fuel. Most, if not all, is used up during exercise and any residual amount that may remain is cleared out within an hour.

As for the energy systems, they do indeed work together. There was a neat chart that showed the contributions of the energy systems in various activities. For example, a 400m runner uses something like 50% aerobic and 50% anaerobic - don’t quote me on this because I can’t remember the exact percentage, but that’s close. By contrast, a 100m sprinter uses 90+% anaerobic and a marathoner uses 90+% aerobic (there is a small percentage contributed by the anaerobic system but it is small). A lot of people have taken Tabata’s study and concluded that all you need is anaerobic training to improve aerobic capacity. This is not correct. Specificity rules, here. Although improving anaerobic endurance will improve aerobic endurance to a certain extent, it cannot replace long, slow-distance training if the goal is to improve endurance.

Pdub, it sounds like your exercise science program is using very outdated information. The lactic acid thing has been out for a few years. Scary that a hack like myself who dabbles in fitness knows more than Ph.D.s in the field.

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Here’s that chart I was talking about:

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While we’re on this subject- Mike, you said that you do some prowler/sled work. Do you find that this helps with your aerobic work? As far as scheduling it into your routine, how do you do so? also, what types of loading and timing are you using?

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[quote]heavylifter36 wrote:
While we’re on this subject- Mike, you said that you do some prowler/sled work. Do you find that this helps with your aerobic work? As far as scheduling it into your routine, how do you do so? also, what types of loading and timing are you using?[/quote]

I don’t really follow a plan. I just take my sled, a bunch of weights, drive to an open field, and have fun. I try to spend around 30-45 minutes out there. I’ll drag for as long as I can, rest as little as possible, and keep going. So far I’ve worked mostly anaerobic endurance, but there is some carryover to running. I’ll probably try some lighter, longer drags.

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[quote]bigquig wrote:

Also saw this. Greatest ultrarunner of all time, undisputed. He talks about a lot of quality mileage on the track, so maybe that’s the answer for some, and maybe will minimize your running time.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=7582[/quote]

Wow, great story. Thanks for the link!

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[quote]pdub690 wrote:
I’m an applied Exercise & Sport Science major, this is right up my alley…

By running that great of volume while lifting you’re severely inhibiting you’re muscle/strength gaining capacity. You’re working two different body systems that typically work separately & even against each other in some cases. By training aerobically (running) you’re severely inhibiting you’re anaerobic system, however, anaerobic exercise does increase you’re aerobic capacity. If you want to build muscle, stop running. If you want to improve you’re running, keep lifting. It’s that simple.

The only reason to run would be to get the lactic acid out of your muscles on your “off days.” But at most it would only take one or two miles to do that, anything above that is detrimental to you’re anaerobic goals.

Either stop running & gain muscle or tweak your lifting program to support your running goals, that’s about it.[/quote]

My degree is in English, so I won’t dispute anybody’s science. However…from personal observation, the guys who don’t run because “lifting helps it anyway,” are usually really really bad runners. Sometimes someone pops up who can just run regardless of background, but it’s extremely rare.

@Treebeard: The guy is unreal. His website has a list of records, and one is a 50 miler he did at a sub 6 minute per mile pace. Makes me feel like a pussy.

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Try training in 3-4 week cycles, and slowly, over time, make sweet gains. I’m definitely no master, but as my PT test approaches I put in 20-30 miles a week and continue to get stronger. I’m still a relatively new (9 months about) lifter, and when I need to get better at running I usually use a 3-4 day a week upper/ lower body split with compound lifts.

I like my weekends off, so I usually work M-F, though my schedule can get a bit hectic with shipboard all-night duty days.

When training for marathons, I keep two strength days a week, and usually keep them pretty simple.

Day 1:

Squat
Bench
Squat Cleans

Day 2:
Snatch/ Deadlift
Push Press
Weighted Pull-ups

Usually do them on Monday/ Thursday and just try to add five pounds to each lift.

28

Hachawah, that looks like a real basic but good maintenance program for marathon. I tend to overcomplicate things, so I think a couple short workouts with basic movements would do me good. Thanks for the input!

@Bigquig, out of curiousity,what was your fastest marathon?

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@Heavylifter, sorry for the late response. Long week. Best marathon was 3:10:52, best 50 mile 9:06. Good luck with everything and enjoy it.

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Thanks, much appreciated!

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[quote]Treebeard wrote:

[quote]bigquig wrote:

Also saw this. Greatest ultrarunner of all time, undisputed. He talks about a lot of quality mileage on the track, so maybe that’s the answer for some, and maybe will minimize your running time.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=7582[/quote]

Wow, great story. Thanks for the link![/quote]

The thing i found the most interesting about this article was, “He tries to do most of his quality work on the track but never runs more than 12 kilometers per workout, typically doing 6 x 2k, 2 x 6k, or 3 x 4k and sometimes, when it is particularly hot, only running 6k total.”

I think its pretty crazy that a guy who runs 1000km races, 6 day races, and other ultra distance races is only putting in about 12km a training day. He basically trains for much shorter races and the “willpowers” his way to longer distances.

Another interesting story is Chris Solinsky beating the american 10km record, after only training for the 5km race ( SOLINSKY STUNS WITH USA 10,000M RECORD AT STANFORD ). He basically shows up to “see how he would do” after training for a bunch of 5km stuff, and breaks the american 10km record. "Solinsky told reporters after the race. “It was my first one; I’ve never done a 10-K before.”

My initial thought is the lower distance training (of both runners) allows them to keep more muscle mass, while still working on endurance. In the longer 10km race he basically “willpowers” his way through the last few km. Since he has good endurance his body is able to push itself for the one race, and since he trained for the shorter race he is able to keep a faster pace than if he had been excessively training longer distances.

i’m no expert here, i’m just speculating, and wondering what other people think?

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have you tried to cut your running to say 15 miles a week ,. but try to run faster per mile times Ie quality runs. No long slow runs, but just fewer faster runs 3days of running 2 days in the gym

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@scskowron: First I may point out that you compared an average distance runner to a study done on elite level decathletes. That is like comparing a study done on your muscle mass compared to Ronnie Colemans. It doesnt apply in the same manner. Sure, you can increase your lifts with training in both areas due to the # of contractions that occur during long distance running in leg muscles, however, to build muscle mass quickly this is not optimal. Consequently, you are training two different muscle fiber types, which do not (for the most part) carry over.
The systems working against each other was an extreme statement, I will admit to that. However, the principle of the statement stays the same. You cannot increase your squat # (for example) simply by running 25 miles a day, you are working completely opposite muscle fiber types. The same goes for increasing your 25 mile run pace by squatting every other day. You are right in correcting me that Anaerobic training helps in aerobic sports, not necessarily aerobic capacity.

@MikeTheBear: Dont throw out bogus ‘facts’ you saw on a chart somewhere on the internet. In a 400m run you are still running highly on anaerobic systems. Aerobic energy systems do not take over or even become very active until distance running of over about a mile in the average athlete. Also, I never said anaerobic training will replace aerobic training to improve that area, I simply said it helps.
Also, in your reference to the Krebs Cycle: Lactic acid is a byproduct of the Krebs Cycle (pyruvic acid). When not fully cleared, lactic acid dissociates, converting to lactate & causing an accumulation of hydrogen ions. Which (if anaerobically training properly) should happen. This hydrogen accumulation causes muscle acidification, which is responsible for your soreness the following day or two after a hard workout. Granted, most of this Hydrogen buildup diffuses out of the cells within 25-30 min., however the excess can be removed by oxidative processes (which kick in during aerobic training). Therefore, Aerobic training DOES aid in the recovery of anaerobic training sessions. These training sessions should be kept under 4-5 miles, after that you are nearing the balance between kick-starting your metabolism & hypertrophy.

I apologize for not being thorough in my first post and I hope this clears up all confusion.

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First I may point out that you compared an average distance runner to a study done on elite level decathletes.

Where did I compare an average distance runner?
It’s true that you need years of training and talent to put up numbers like elite level decathletes, but the fact that they can do it disproves your notion that the energy systems work against each other. Surely, an average athlete won’t be able to achieve that level of simultaneous strength and endurance, but they can still get pretty good if they try.

however, to build muscle mass quickly this is not optimal. Consequently, you are training two different muscle fiber types, which do not (for the most part) carry over.

Are we talking about strength or muscle mass? – I’m confused.

You cannot increase your squat # (for example) simply by running 25 miles a day, you are working completely opposite muscle fiber types.

No crap. I didn’t suggest anything remotely like that. What we’re suggesting in this thread is that you can increase endurance and strength simultaneously by training for both simultaneously. In other words, squatting and running will get you better at squatting and running. Not that running will get you better at squatting.

Aerobic energy systems do not take over or even become very active until distance running of over about a mile in the average athlete.

This is 100% false. Aerobic energy system is the dominant system at the 800m. In men, the aerobic system provides up to 60% of the energy at the 800m, and up to 70% for women, even at elite levels. For the 400m, it’s 40% aerobic in men. You can reference this study, among many others: Energy system contribution to 400-metre and 800-metre track running - PubMed . These facts have been widely accepted in the exercise physiology community within the last 30 years. Maybe the exact ratios are disputed, as different scientists measure it differently, but most will agree that the 800m is PRIMARILY an aerobic event. And for this reason I would consider it an endurance event.

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Although a beginner to weights (10 weeks in) and not lifting anything like heavy yet eg 1xbw deadlift i do run and walk on the same day as weight training even if i am doing a lower body split. I usually do an interval set on the treadmill imediately after finishing weights, usually feel really heavy an ddraggy for a while but that improves over a few minutes–guess washing out the lactate is the issue, then after cool down eat/drink and walk home up to 4 miles for some non cardio easy finish.