Loftearmen's MMA Log

London = Great post!
Loftearmen- When generating power from the floor, your not pushing off in a linebacker sense. Sometimes when faced by a really uncoordinated student I will tell them to instigate the punch on the bag with a small stomp so they can feel the KE flow through them from the floor up. So if throwing the right get on the balls of your right foot and after you start the punch stomp your heel and turn your hip. Do it 20-30 times and then stop doing it for a couple and then repeat. Its not a big deal just a good example of weight and KE transfer, that you won’t forget. hope this makes sense( this would be on like there first or second day in the gym). This doesn’t have to be some big thing/movement , realize that the levers of your bones have been doing this movement for a long time, and that now you are changing it slightly and repurposing it.

The KE builds in multiples as it transfers to each bone. So 2 pounds pressure at the floor comes out as 200fp at the hand. Question what state are you in. We may be able to direct you to a gym in your area. Or maybe a member would step up and help you get on the right road.

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
London = Great post!
Loftearmen- When generating power from the floor, your not pushing off in a linebacker sense. Sometimes when faced by a really uncoordinated student I will tell them to instigate the punch on the bag with a small stomp so they can feel the KE flow through them from the floor up. ( this would be on like there first or second day in the gym). This doesn’t have to be some big thing/movement , realize that the levers of your bones have been doing this movement for a long time, and that now you are changing it slightly and repurposing it. The KE builds in multiples as it transfers to each bone. So 2 pounds pressure at the floor comes out as 200fp at the hand. Question what state are you in. We may be able to direct you to a gym in your area. Or maybe a member would step up and help you get on the right road.[/quote]

Thanks for the response. I’m familiar with the movement you’re describing from throwing stones at the highland games. The last inch of extension is what generates the power in a braemar stone throw, I’ll just have to figure out how to do it without spinning in a bunch of circles first hahaha. It will take some practice but I have never had an issue with learning new sports. As long as I’m conscious of it and I know what I need to achieve in the end it’ll just be a matter of time until I put all the pieces together.

I live in Mesquite, TX. I am on the opposite side of town from all of the “big” MMA gyms. DFW has prohibitive traffic so I would only be able to go to one of those on Saturdays and then there is the issue of pricing. There is an MMA gym very close to my house though. It doesn’t really seem as hardcore as the other ones do though. Hopefully I’m wrong about that. The classes are structured similarly to how they are in a karate dojo but it really is my only choice. There are also some Judo classes at the community center one town over that I’ll probably stop by whenever I have the time.

The thing that I would really like to find are a group of guys with whom I could spar/grapple outside of classes.

Prelogged for tonight:

Deadlift
315x3
405x2
495x2
585x2
605x2
485x5
485x5
485x5

Log Clean and Press
100x5
150x2
190x2
210x2
230x2
190x5
190x5
190x5

Barbell Row
225x6
275x6
275x6
275x6

Heavy Bag HIIT
30 seconds on/30 seconds restx10 minutes

You understand then. Your numbers are similar to mine from 1 year ago when I gave up PL and Strongman to return to combatives , my numbers then in competition where 425 squat, 485 DL, 345 Bench at 255 body weight= fat,old,slow. I had a old log in the over thirty five forum, its 5-6 pages back. I also have a new one. I have been concentrating on metabolic and SSC , while cutting weight and strength. It sucks but the end result will be worth it. Today did a filthy fifty of 135 PC 135 Standing mili,135 DL, 135 row, completing each 50 before moving on for time. Then tonight will be 20-30 minutes of sparring during a 60-90 minute W/O. My best advise is you should get to a boxing gym ASAP, this will get you off on the right start. IMHO

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
You understand then. Your numbers are similar to mine from 1 year ago when I gave up PL and Strongman to return to combatives , my numbers then in competition where 425 squat, 485 DL, 345 Bench at 255 body weight= fat,old,slow. I had a old log in the over thirty five forum, its 5-6 pages back. I also have a new one. I have been concentrating on metabolic and SSC , while cutting weight and strength. It sucks but the end result will be worth it. Today did a filthy fifty of 135 PC 135 Standing mili,135 DL, 135 row, completing each 50 before moving on for time. Then tonight will be 20-30 minutes of sparring during a 60-90 minute W/O. My best advise is you should get to a boxing gym ASAP, this will get you off on the right start. IMHO [/quote]

My competition numbers are actually 645/407/685 and I’m a lot stronger than that right now, I just haven’t gotten onto a platform in 8 months to prove it.

I’m trying to stray from the “gym type” conditioning work in favor of jumping rope, bag work, shadow boxing, jogging and calisthenics. I’m doing this simply because I’ve always done weighted conditioning work and I’m really good at it whereas I get gassed pretty quickly just from shadow boxing with any level of intensity. My mentality has always been that I’ve gotta keep making my weaknesses my strengths if I want to improve.

Great numbers, but they will not help you much in the ring. You will benefit from metabolic and SSC. If your going to compete, at some point your mileage should reach the 25mi per week area. I am just trying to get in that zone and see where I can maintain the weight at. I am thinking I will fall on the 220’s. Today I was 239 in the am. Where are you thinking you want to compete at.

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
London = Great post!
Loftearmen- When generating power from the floor, your not pushing off in a linebacker sense. Sometimes when faced by a really uncoordinated student I will tell them to instigate the punch on the bag with a small stomp so they can feel the KE flow through them from the floor up. So if throwing the right get on the balls of your right foot and after you start the punch stomp your heel and turn your hip. Do it 20-30 times and then stop doing it for a couple and then repeat. Its not a big deal just a good example of weight and KE transfer, that you won’t forget. hope this makes sense( this would be on like there first or second day in the gym). This doesn’t have to be some big thing/movement , realize that the levers of your bones have been doing this movement for a long time, and that now you are changing it slightly and repurposing it.

The KE builds in multiples as it transfers to each bone. So 2 pounds pressure at the floor comes out as 200fp at the hand. Question what state are you in. We may be able to direct you to a gym in your area. Or maybe a member would step up and help you get on the right road.[/quote]

There are more than one way to generate force, but, from a purely physics standpoint you actually do want to push off the ground like a linebacker (though the movement is actually closer to a batter or pitcher in baseball or a quarterback in football than to a linebacker) as this is what initiates your mass transfer (you must push off something in order to move your body quickly in any direction, with the exception of straight down); whether it be to throw a punch, kick, or just reposition yourself/footwork.

You can add a stomp in some cases (like the stepping straight right that I described earlier), while in others you really can’t (at least not if trying to generate full power) and stomping can activate the Stretch Shortening Cycle/Plyometric effect and create some rebound, but it’s actually not as efficient as you suggested; otherwise with a mere 200lbs of force generated into the stomp (which is well below most athletic adult males’ maximal capacity) you could generate 2,000 lbs of force without any other power sources. If this were the case Boxers, Muay Thai fighters/Kickboxers, and MMA fighters would be getting killed left and right from trauma to their brains, and no one would walk out of such sporting fights without serious internal injuries. The truth is that bones don’t work the way you suggested; at best they could transfer 100% of whatever force you generated via your stomp into the target, but cannot possibly transfer more than that value, and in reality will probably transfer less than 100%.

Nonetheless, stomping can still be an effective way to add a little more force to your strikes.

I would like to compete around 270.

I was thinking this as well. I do know that a really strong punch is around 1,000lbs of force. As far as I know, a 2,000 lb punch is unheard of.

Sento - Realize this is a one time only training tool to demonstrate force transfer , I don’t think stomping your heel is going to help you do anything.
Also these numbers for the force where pure hypothetical. As far as what I advocate for sitting down on a punch. I want the feet as flat as possible mostly due to everybody I train being on unknown surfaces (oil,mud,water,ice,glass) all the time. They cannot afford slips. Also my understanding of biokenetics is the bones don’t cause any magnification of force they merely transfer it. Its the muscles and tendons that can multiply force due to the preload on the muscle fibers. Kind of like Starlings law for the cardiac tissues.

There might be a few people in history that could have generated a 2,000 lb punch, but they would have had to have been drawing from every power source available, and have been the absolute genetic elite in terms of punching power and have reached an elite level of punching skill. Someone like George Foreman, Tyson, David Tua (left hook), Frazier’s left hook, etc… and even that would probably be a “good if not great” punch for them. This would have been a true Power punch as well meaning maximal wind up, no concern for telegraph, no real concern for defense, etc…so very limited actual combative application.

Also, your strength numbers are very impressive and I would argue actually will definitely give you a distinct advantage in the cage (especially in grappling, but even in striking), provided you heed London’s advice from earlier in the thread about really putting your all into improving from a technical and strategic perspective (and focusing on conditioning, which you appear to be doing). Those kind of numbers put you in the “exception” category where you actually could just force a lot of things or power out of things even if your technique isn’t as good as your opponent’s. Now combine that raw strength with proper mechanics and you become a scary dude. Combine that with good strategy, some ring/cage time (experience), and conditioning and you become a seriously scary dude.

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Sento - Realize this is a one time only training tool to demonstrate force transfer , I don’t think stomping your heel is going to help you do anything.
Also these numbers for the force where pure hypothetical. As far as what I advocate for sitting down on a punch. I want the feet as flat as possible mostly due to everybody I train being on unknown surfaces (oil,mud,water,ice,glass) all the time. They cannot afford slips. Also my understanding of biokenetics is the bones don’t cause any magnification of force they merely transfer it. Its the muscles and tendons that can multiply force due to the preload on the muscle fibers. Kind of like Starlings law for the cardiac tissues.[/quote]

Ok, well that makes more sense. And again, it can be a legit source of power.

The thing with being flat footed is that if you are truly flat footed, (meaning weight evenly on the heels and toes or even weight towards the heels) it robs you of the most powerful lever (the ankle ), largest tendon (the Achilles) and some of the most powerful muscles of the body (the Calf complex). There is a reason why Sprinters begin on blocks, or if you freeze any type of throwing/power based athletic movement at the moment of “release” (I know I’m walking into something there) you will see the athlete on the ball of their rear foot.

I do hear you about unpredictable terrains, and of course on a highly slippery or hazardous surface one might choose to sacrifice some power in their punches to increase their stability, so if that works for your people in their arena of application then cool, I discuss those adjustments with my students as well and train in such environments (on ice, on gravel, in the snow, in waist deep water/mud, etc…) as well so I know what you are talking about. But that is more of an environmental/situational adjustment for real world terrains that doesn’t really apply to someone wanting to fight in the predictable and controlled environment of an MMA cage.

So, on a smooth, level, free from obstructions matted area like a ring/cage, I would highly recommend that people not remain flat footed (at least 60% of the weight on the ball of the feet to allow pivoting, and recruitment of the calves/ankles for moving, hitting, bracing, or pulling).

Double Overhand Beltless Deadlift
135x5
225x5
315x1
405x1
495x1
585x1
605x2 PR
485x5
485x5
485x5

Log Clean and Press
100x5
150x2
200x2
220x2
240x2
190x5
190x5
190x5

Barbell Row
225x5
275x6
275x6
275x6

605 is not a big deadlift for me but it is huge for a double overhand grip deadlift. I am pretty happy with that :slight_smile:

I went and looked at my heavy bag video again frame by frame and I saw a lot of problems with it. I have a habit of “chambering” my opposite hand when I punch. I probably learned this from years of karate where they want you to bring your opposite hand to your belt. You can see a good example of it here:

I did this on numerous occasions with a variety of punches. What a horrifically bad way to teach someone how to punch lol. I’ll have to unlearn this tendency if I want to save my face from getting bashed in.

There were a couple good things in there though. I could always see that I have a good amount of foot drive when I punch, especially when I’m throwing a straight right which is undeniably my most powerful.

I also saw that I have reasonably sound kicking mechanics. There are always some things that I could improve but at this point I just need to fine tune my round and front kicks and work on foot speed. There are no major problems going on. Here’s a pic of my rear leg round kick.

I’m not going to be able to work out Thursday because my kids got tickets to a hockey game so I’m going to do my calisthenics tonight after some shadow boxing and bag work.

Jump Rope
2x2 minutes

Shadow Boxing
3x5,4,3 minutes

Heavy Bag
2x5 minutes

Push Ups
1x1 minute (26)

Sit Ups
1x1 minute (25 but I did them without anything supporting my feet this time)

Chin Ups
1x1 minute (7. I could have done more but I did 6 last week so I figured I’d stop here for the sake of further progression)

I could tell that I have been training hard for several days in a row. I was just feeling a little run down. I’m not training tomorrow so hopefully Friday and Saturday will be a little better.

Yeah, it’s a bad habit that a lot of traditional arts teach and unfortunately one you’re going to have to unlearn. I will say though that dropping the non punching hand when you throw “power” strikes is something that is fairly common for people learning how to box; they tend to keep it up ok when throwing the jab, but tend to drop it on the rear hand or lead hook.

With the round kicks you will get numerous “correct”'ways that people throw them or teach them. Some people teach to “pendulum” the arm down/back to add extra power, others like to keep both hands “up” and will just pull the elbow slightly back/down (Kyokushin fighters often teach this), yet others like to extend the arm to obstruct incoming counters/blind distract opponent, or trap (my preferred method).

Regardless of what you do with the “lead” (arm on same side you are kicking with) arm there are a few things you can do to minimize your chances of being countered hard:

  1. angle out-if your head is between your opponent’s shoulders when you land the kick there is a possibility of eating a big counter (straight right if you are throwing a right round kick), so to avoid this you can step/angle slightly outside your opponent’s right foot or “turn in” so you are flanking your opponent to their left before throwing the kick

  2. Roll your lead shoulder (like doing s shoulder roll defense) and keep your rear hand (left hand if throwing the right round kick) up in front of your chin to catch anything that might slip by your shoulder. This also ensure full hip rotation on the kick

  3. set the kick up right-just throwing a lead rear leg round kick can work if you are fast and have conditioned your shins (or just naturally have hard, sharp, dense bones) to taking impacts on hard surfaces, but there is also a much greater chance of running into a shin/knee block, forearm/elbow, or having someone step in, check your kicks (which is not the same thing as a shin block although people often use the term to mean that) and trade your leg kick for a punch to your body or head. Again, not saying this can’t work as there are plenty of fighters who do it with success, but it’s riskier than using the kick as a “power” follow up shot (like you would use the straight right). A couple good combinations that set it up well and make it harder to block include:

-Jab, straight right, right leg round kick (neither the jab or straight right has to land necessarily, but with will serve to get the opponent’s attention “upstairs”, both can temporarily blind them from seeing your kick coming if you place your punches at mouth/chin/neck level depending on range, or 1 or both can be used to “trap” the opponent’s lead arm and bodyweight onto their lead leg (making it difficult to lift the leg to block your kick. The straight right also has a nice way of pre-turning your hips and flowing very easily into the right round kick making the combination quick, hard to spot, and good against people who like to shoulder roll or “run”.

-(jab, if using offensively, though not necessary) straight right, left hook, right round kick- this kick can be thrown more power style or more speed style depending on how you execute it. If throwing it power style then the end position of your left hook should put your weight on your right leg, thus “loading” that side to allow you to powerfully push off that leg to initiate a power right round kick (it is also advise able to take a slight step with your left leg “outside” their right shoulder/leg as you initiate the kick to provide better protection from their counter right hand and to add mass transfer to your kick. The other way to use this is to use the left hook to disrupt their balance (aim high on the head, it’s more of a “bump”/slap than a punch meant to hurt them) and put their weight on their left leg, then you throw a switch speed rear leg round kick (essentially you are throwing the kick at the same time you are doing a switch step) to their left leg. This won’t have the same thunderous impact or do the same amount of damage as the power version, but if done right it’s very safe and hard to block.

-lead drag step inside round kick (which when mastered is a great lead off technique and very hard to block, but requires some practice and athleticism and for a guy your size may not be the most practical lead off technique in which case you could use Grandmaster Bill Wallace’s “no step” footwork trick to set it up), repeated several times till your opponent starts really trying hard to get their leg up to check your kick as soon as they see your lead hip “cock”, then fake the lead kick (you can either do a “knee fake” where you actually throw a half kick/raise the leg off the floor or just a “hip fake” where you cock the hip like you are starting the kick but don’t actually throw the leg at all) to draw their reaction and immediately switch to a rear leg round kick aimed at their rear supporting leg (sometimes you go through their lead leg and kick both legs out, sometimes you go under their lead leg and just hit the rear one, depends on how high they lift their leg to block you and how low you aim your kick.

There are plenty of variations on these but these are some simple template combos that you can use on the bag and do directly translate to sparring/fighting.

Hope this helps.

Sentoguy: Thanks for the tips. I’ll try to practice some of those techniques/combos when I’m shadowboxing. I need to get everything feeling comfortable again so I can start working on my speed. I can do most of those techniques properly but they feel a little awkward since I’m just getting back into it.

It’s funny that you bring up Bill Wallace’s name. Everyone I’ve mentioned his name to didn’t know who he was. My Dad lost a full contact karate match to him at the 1974 Black Belt Invitational Championship leaving him in 2nd. I have a video of it on a reel (that I don’t own a player for any longer lol)

Wow, cool! I have a Black Belt under GM Wallace (my instructor Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. has been training with Bill and the late great Joe Lewis since he was a teenager and teaches at the JLFS/Superfoot Research Conference every year); he is a great guy and an awesome teacher. What is your Dad’s name? Maybe next time I see him I’ll ask him if he remembers fighting him (if you don’t feel comfortable giving your Dad’s name to a total stranger on a public Internet forum I totally understand).

I don’t think he would mind. Anyone who wanted to know his name could have already found it with the info about his fight with Bill Wallace. His name is George Helm III. He owned a Shotokan/Okinawan karate school when I was little which is how I got into it.

Cool, I’ll ask him next time I get a chance to train with him. :slight_smile: