T Nation

LL PRIME 9-22-05

Mike,
Hmm. I’m not sure how much Tim Patterson wants let out of the bag. I have consulted on the product for a long time but Tim really makes the official formula decisions. The interest leaned toward the benefits of DHA, as opposed to most products that focus on EPA. (Although last I heard, the product would contain both, just in a certain proportion that may be particularly helpful to male athletes). Tim also wanted to add another rare fatty acid and my input was that if it were to be included, to have it in lower amounts due to its potential potency and “exotic” nature. That way, those looking for fish oil specifically wouldn’t be getting too much of this other ingredient, even at a multi-gram dose. After amassing a large literature review of various uncommon fats (much appearing in reference lists of my articles), I think that the product has moved toward a state of both offering pharmaceutical-like benefits while also addressing a sense of “replacing relative deficiency”, common to modern Western diets.

Hope that’s something for you!

LL

[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
Doc -

I’m really not trying to win the free stuff, promise :wink:

From what I understand you are formulating the new EPA/DHA product for Biotest. I’m hugely interested in inflammation and the ailments it contributes to (specifically arthritis). So here’s my question: What will make your formulation different or better than others. Thanks!

Stay strong
MR[/quote]

Disc Hoss,
Regarding green oat extract (Avena Sativa), I hadn’t seen the actual percentages for free T, SHBG, etc. Interesting. Since SHBG binds T more tightly than it binds estrogen, reducing its effects might actually push one toward an androgenic state.

Now I need to go dig for some more published research! For ages I’ve been waiting for some hard numbers on this stuff.

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
LonMan,
What is the scoop on Avena Sativa with the coside content being at least 5-7% in a 10:1 mix with respect to being able to increase fT by around 20-25%? Read by Jim Stoppani PhD that it’s a good buy/use. Thoughts? Being just over 30, I’m looking to keep the rocks still rollin’ ;-).

DH
[/quote]

derek,
There’s just too much data supportng PWO carbs. Here’s a taste:

Ivy JL. Muscle glycogen synthesis before and after exercise. Sports Med 1991; 11(1):6.

Friedman, J. et al. Regulation of glycogen resynthesis following exercise. Dietary considerations. Sports Med 1991; 11(4):232-43.

Doyle JA, Sherman WM, Strauss RL. Effects of eccentric and concentric exercise on muscle glycogen replenishment. J Appl Physiol 1993; 74(4A):1848-1855.

Burke LM, Collier GR, Davis PG, et al. Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the frequency of carbohydrate feedings. Am J Clin Nutr 1996; 64:115.

RESISTANCE EXERCISE…
Pascoe DD, Costill DL, Fink WJ, et al. Glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle following resistive exercise. Med Sci Sports Exer 1993; 25(3):349.

Widrick JJ, Costill DL, McConell GK, et al. Time course of glycogen accumulation after eccentric training. J Appl Physiol 1992; 72(5):1999.

Tarnopolsky, et al. Postexercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women.J Appl Physiol 1997 Dec;83(6):1877-83

I personally will stick twith my PWO carb and insulin rush!

[quote]derek wrote:
LL, can you help me out with my post workout dilemma? I am successfully using the Anabolic Diet. I have (for the last 5 years been on top of the science behind PWO nutrition. Now, however I am asked to toss that PWO shake etc. into the trash and consume whey and oils/fats etc. PWO.

I find it difficult to argue with either method yet they are diametrically opposed to one another.

What gives?

Thanks, LL[/quote]

analog_kid:

Yep. It doesn’t appear to be a problem. Check this out:

J Appl Physiol. 2004 Jul;97(1):11-6. Epub 2004 Feb 20.
Fox AK, Kaufman AE, Horowitz JF.
Adding fat calories to meals after exercise does not alter glucose tolerance.

LL

[quote]analog_kid wrote:
Lon-Dawg,

I remember reading(could have been in another PrimeTime thread, or an old ThinkTank)something you said about the effects of higher amounts of fat PWO and it not being as bad a deal as previously thought. Was I dreaming? Is there any more light you can shed on this subject? Thanks![/quote]

blondie,
Although I’m not too concerned about the prostate (and linolenic acid)issue, I think fresh ground flax seed is best… and then at just 2 Tbsp. daily. Just my personal choice.

LL

[quote]blondie wrote:
Hi Lonnie

What are your thoughts on Flax seed powder. I know you warn against the use of oil due to the prostate issue.

Many thanks
Blondie[/quote]

Ruggerlife ,
I think that homeostasis rules, especially when we compare healthies to clinical patients, who lack the robustness of homeostasis.

As conflicting evidence comes out, I look at the research subject type, dose, duration, etc. as possible explanations. And I always remember that the human body is messy and complex, so no single mechanism should be looked at as THE reason for an observed phenomenon. (I hope that makes sense.)

I also keep in mind that what I read on the Think Tank (and related sites) is often exploring possibilities that aren’t yet enjoying a consensus in the scientific literature. That’s the price for “cutting edge”, so hopefully those who make suggestions are up-front about how "carved in stone they are - or aren’t. We need to kick ego to the curb and adjust our conclusions with objectivity as new data arrive.

Haramdar,
Both times offer opportunities. The pre-exercise feeding literature gets more solid every day.

[quote]Haramdar wrote:
LL do you find that taking a Pre-WO drink (outside of a booster ie. Power Drive) as essential to the building process as a Pre bedtime shake? Both serve in muscle preservation during catabolic states.[/quote]

mufasa,
Interesting notes on those vitamins…

K is made by gut bacteria while D is made in the skin from a cholesterol-like molecule and sunlight, as you mentioned. In other words, we can basically make this stuff.

I did recently see data (and by chance also heard from a physician) that here in the Midwest, winter sun can be insufficient and vite D can become an issue. A multi-vitamin could help.

Bauer97,
I have seen data that gastric emptying of various food items can occur both independently (e.g. casein + whey appear to empty at their own paces regardless) but IIRC, also that interference can occur (e.g. fats slowing other contents, etc.)

[quote]Bauer97 wrote:
Hey LL,

I asked a similar question during your combo primetime with DB, but didn’t get to see your thoughts on it:

In relation to postworkout nurition, how does the body handle simulatenous ingestion of nutrients that differ slightly in how fast they are absorbed? As in, if I take Surge post-workout, but also consume some whey isolate, lactose and sucrose within the same immediate timeframe, will the slightly slower acting ingredients in the latter group “get in the way” of the faster absorbing ingredients in Surge?[/quote]

CD WINNER

DISC HOSS!

(Rolled a die and you came up lucky!)

Please send me a PM with a shipping address (I’ll destroy the address afterwards for privacy reasons.)

Congrats!

DH stands in star struck excitement. For a moment his whole life flashes before him. It is both complex and simple; surreal and yet assaulting on the senses with it’s “reality”. Finding the motor control to finally move his legs, he makes his way to the podium, smiles and waves, then…

trips and falls down the stairs in a shockingly ugly display of contortions.

Wanna get Away???


Thank you LonMan! And to the rest, well…you can argue over who wins “Miss Congeniality”.

Being a Creationist, I find it humorous that a chance roll of the die made me a winner. ;-0. Ha! Perhaps divine providence.

I’ll give a post on the goods soon enough.

;-).
DH

[quote]Lonnie Lowery wrote:
CD WINNER

DISC HOSS!

(Rolled a die and you came up lucky!)

Please send me a PM with a shipping address (I’ll destroy the address afterwards for privacy reasons.)

Congrats![/quote]

Derek, forgive the interruption. It’s that you are dealing with apples and oranges. Different routes to the same destination. Doc D really hammers this home when he speaks of being fully adapted to the diet beyond that seen in the short term that most people fixate on. Like training. You can train long or you can train hard, but you cannot do both. Two roads, same destination.

DH

Sorry to interrupt. [quote]derek wrote:
LL, can you help me out with my post workout dilemma? I am successfully using the Anabolic Diet. I have (for the last 5 years been on top of the science behind PWO nutrition. Now, however I am asked to toss that PWO shake etc. into the trash and consume whey and oils/fats etc. PWO.

I find it difficult to argue with either method yet they are diametrically opposed to one another.

What gives?

Thanks, LL[/quote]