[quote]pookie wrote:
John S. wrote:
Please provide the quote saying women should not teach men?(Not saying it is not there but would like a complete quote at least I provided the actual passage).
1 Timothy 2:11-12
You can also read up on these:
1 Timothy 2:14-15
Titus 2:4-5
Ephesians 5:22-24, 5:33
Colossians 3:18
1 Peter 3:1-7
1 Corinthians 11:3-9, 14:34-35
[/quote]
You cannot ask a Christian to read the Bible, it is the shortest road to atheism.
Lixy wrote:
“Bit of trivia: At the time of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh), Arabs used to bury their baby girls alive. Having a daughter was considered a curse. The advent of Islam put a term to this barbarious practice.”
How muslims have evolved. They stopped burying baby girls, and now they just beat and humiliate them. Then there are those pesky “honor killings”.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/london/cps_london_news/honour_crimes_conference/
Huge progress. What a lovely culture.
[quote]orion wrote:
You cannot ask a Christian to read the Bible, it is the shortest road to atheism.[/quote]
Shhhh. Do not expose my cunning plan.
[quote]pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
You cannot ask a Christian to read the Bible, it is the shortest road to atheism.
Shhhh. Do not expose my cunning plan.
[/quote]
I hate when you two do that! It lumps me in with these literalist whacko’s!
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
How muslims have evolved. They stopped burying baby girls, and now they just beat and humiliate them. Then there are those pesky “honor killings”.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/london/cps_london_news/honour_crimes_conference/[/quote]
I hate to attack Christianity like that, but you’re kinda forcing me to.
Lev. 21:9 “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.”
Honor killings happen among Jewish, Christian, Muslim and pageant communities. It’s got NOTHING to do with the religion.
Jews resorting to honor killings:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/814204.html
A dude from Arkansas was recently accused of microwaving his daughter. How’s THAT for twisted?
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=46026
A famous case of a Druze honor killing:
I’ll skip the long list of jealous husbands and overprotecting fathers that slayed women in the US.
You are really making an ass of yourself by selectively picking on Islam. Incidentally, you’re fueling the extremists.
[quote]Huge progress. What a lovely culture.
Broken URL.
[quote]orion wrote:
pookie wrote:
John S. wrote:
Please provide the quote saying women should not teach men?(Not saying it is not there but would like a complete quote at least I provided the actual passage).
1 Timothy 2:11-12
You can also read up on these:
1 Timothy 2:14-15
Titus 2:4-5
Ephesians 5:22-24, 5:33
Colossians 3:18
1 Peter 3:1-7
1 Corinthians 11:3-9, 14:34-35
You cannot ask a Christian to read the Bible, it is the shortest road to atheism.[/quote]
1 Timothy 2:11-15
This will explain things a lot better then I can.
Titus 2:4-5
http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/56-14.htm
Ephesians 5:22-24, 5:33
Colossians 3:18 This is part 19.
Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them."
1 Peter 3:1-7
http://www.tmch.net/1pt_3_1_7.htm
1 Corinthians 11:3-9, 14:34-35
Can be answered in my other links.
If you really want to know about these passages please read these links I have provided you.
[quote]orion wrote:
John S. wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
John S. wrote:
How about the direct quote from there holy book? I showed these vids to show two different views of the passage, I was asking how he explains this. incase you can’t read. Ill break it down for your punk ass. IT TELLS THEM ITS OK TO BEAT THERE WIVES.
From Leviticus 20 (English Standard Version)
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. If a man lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
Mind explaining to me how a religion can prescribe DEATH for things like cheating or being gay?
Or that, if you have sex with a woman and her mother, that the three of you should be BURNED ALIVE?
I can explain this. When throwing up the old testament you better understand the bible or you will be taken to school. With that in mind please allow me to show you.
Before Jesus sacrificed himself the for the sins of the world God was vengeful.(you would be too if you considered every sin a blatant attack with no apology). They had to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness for every sin.
God classified certain sins with certain punishments back then. Since the christian religion is based more on the new testament where we have already received the ultimate sacrifice all we have to do is ask and we are forgiven, God is not as vengeful so those old styles are out the window.
If any religion would follow those rules it would be judaism.
And it all makes so much sense doesn`t it?
God has to come to earth in the form of his own son to be killed in order to be able to change the rules he made himself…
And then Jesus reminded us that every jot and tittle of the Old Testament still stands.
What really is a comforting thought though is that the bloodthirsty genocidal
maniac that is the God of the Old Testament changed his mind completely…
He is all about peace and love now, he must have matured because of fatherhood.
[/quote]
Again, you have no idea what your talking about. God was vengeful because of every sin considered an attack on him and in need of a sacrifice. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Now since you do not understand ultimate sacrifice I will take the time to explain it too you.
The ultimate sacrifice(Jesus) died to take all the sins of the world from past present and future. Meaning God was no longer vengeful for every sin as long as you ask for forgiveness.
[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
What are your views on this?
First, I’ll remind you that the thread titles are supposed to be a concise description of the topic (that is, something like “Wife beating in Islam” would have been much better). While it certainly serves my ego to have threads with my name on them, it doesn’t necessarily serve the community. If you have something to ask me, use private messages.
That out of the way, let’s get started.
Bit of trivia: At the time of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh), Arabs used to bury their baby girls alive. Having a daughter was considered a curse. The advent of Islam put a term to this barbarious practice.
The translation of the verse you quoted doesn’t do it justice. The verse’s original wording is much more ambiguous and symbolic than its English rendering shows. First, what you translated as “superior” is really “quawammun”. In my view, it’s a reference to the physiological differences in bodily strength and emotions. Let’s face it, women’s T-level will never equate those of a man. Anyone who had to deal with a woman whose aunt Irma was visiting will understand the emotional bit. It gets even worse during menopause. That’s what I believe was meant by the “quawammun”.
Now for the corporal punishment bit, most respected scholars (e.g: Tabari) insist on the punishment being symbolic. Indeed, the first video just relays part of the famous “khutbat al-wada’a” speech given by the prophet. The second guy is clearly a hard-liner and his speech will never be tolerated in a Moroccan mosque for example. He’ll get sacked the same day. That said, notice how his speech was edited as to leave only the most inflammatory remarks. For the MEMRI, that’s common practice.
If you want an in-depth interpretation of the semantics of that controversial verse, I’d recommend the following papers.
http://www.flwi.ugent.be/cie/bogaert/bogaert4.htm
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html
You seem quite young and that usually means a pretty short attention span, but ask yourself why would a woman ever convert to Islam if the religion gave her second-class status or condoned physical abuse against her? You may not realize it, but a lot of women embrace Islam on a daily basis.
Hope this helps.[/quote]
I was under the impression in the middle east they where forced to be muslims. It is my understanding that most muslim women are not converted they are raised that way(I could be very wrong).
Lixy,
You’re confused. “Attacking Christians” as you put it is a matter of complete indifference to me.
You’re a muslim. Attacking other faiths is required of you because of your religion. Your “prophet” would be pleased.
I think this guy pretty much sums it up nicely about how “good muslims” view other faiths.
John-
The mideast is just like America: here most people claim to be Christian yet are really secular. In the mideast most people claim to be muslims yet are really secular.
In most muslims countries wearing the head scarf is not mandatory for women and is not required by law.
Lixy wrote “You are really making an ass of yourself by selectively picking on Islam. Incidentally, you’re fueling the extremists.”
I point out the things about your “religion” that are distasteful, and I’m “fueling the extremists”. That’s another one of your apologies for muslims that can’t handle criticism. Does everyone in your sleeper cell feel the same?
Funny thing, I’m about to take a plane to Vegas in two hours, and I’ll have to take off my shoes before I board - thanks to Islam.
If only it were truly a religion of peace instead of a death cult. It would make flying easier don’t you think?
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
John-
The mideast is just like America: here most people claim to be Christian yet are really secular. In the mideast most people claim to be muslims yet are really secular.
In most muslims countries wearing the head scarf is not mandatory for women and is not required by law.[/quote]
I understand that. This thread was only supposed to deal with that passage. I apologize that it took another route as I had to defend my religion for a bit. This was not an attack on islam. This was me wanting to know about that that passage. And lixy has provided his view, if anyone else has a view please let me know through pm, Let this die.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
John S. wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
John S. wrote:
How about the direct quote from there holy book? I showed these vids to show two different views of the passage, I was asking how he explains this. incase you can’t read. Ill break it down for your punk ass. IT TELLS THEM ITS OK TO BEAT THERE WIVES.
From Leviticus 20 (English Standard Version)
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. If a man lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
Mind explaining to me how a religion can prescribe DEATH for things like cheating or being gay?
Or that, if you have sex with a woman and her mother, that the three of you should be BURNED ALIVE?
I can explain this. When throwing up the old testament you better understand the bible or you will be taken to school. With that in mind please allow me to show you.
Before Jesus sacrificed himself the for the sins of the world God was vengeful.(you would be too if you considered every sin a blatant attack with no apology). They had to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness for every sin.
God classified certain sins with certain punishments back then. Since the christian religion is based more on the new testament where we have already received the ultimate sacrifice all we have to do is ask and we are forgiven, God is not as vengeful so those old styles are out the window.
If any religion would follow those rules it would be judaism.
Three times Jesus said he was not there to take back the old rules. Unless Jesus sepcifically said it was to be changed, all the Old Testament teachings still apply.
And have you read Timothy?
“No woman shall teach men, for woman should never hold power over men” (Paraphrase)
The bible, New and Old Testament is filled with disgusting garbage, encouraging the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. But we can just go ahead and ignore all that because “Jesus was good”.
Jesus didn’t write the goddamn Bible. He was dead two hundred years before they even began writing the New Testament books.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are ALL faiths based on Semitic tradition. Christianity just happens to have a greater mix of Pagan Indo-European influence.
Really, You want to place a bet on what time the scrolls where written?
Jesus took the punishment for are sins. The fact that you avoid that says a lot about your knowledge on the subject. Christianity at its base is a peaceful religion. Some people had there own agenda and used the bible to get things done, that is wrong. But what I have given you people is a direct quote from there book and allow me to paraphrase it says beat a womens ass.
Please provide the quote saying women should not teach men?(Not saying it is not there but would like a complete quote at least I provided the actual passage).
Please lixy show yourself, explain this too me. Im not calling out Islam like some of these people think im doing, Im asking how do moderate muslims view this passage.[/quote]
Tim 2:11-12
And, once again, anything Jesus did not rescind in his speeches is still in effect. He says as much three times in various books. I’ll ask my friend for the actual passages, as he’s read and re-read the bible more than any Christian I know (he’s an atheist, FYI).
Moderate Muslims (American ones) view this passage as irrelevant. It’s simply ignored. Just like moderate American CHristians tend to ignore the whole beating your kids to death if they’re rebellious rule.
However, moderate Christians don’t seem to ignore a single sentence condemning Gay sex, but DO choose to ignore a passage condemning LOOKING at a women on her cycle (period).
Get over yourself. Moderate Islamics are normal people, just like moderate Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Atheists. The term ‘moderate’ implies as much.
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Lixy wrote “You are really making an ass of yourself by selectively picking on Islam. Incidentally, you’re fueling the extremists.”
I point out the things about your “religion” that are distasteful, and I’m “fueling the extremists”. That’s another one of your apologies for muslims that can’t handle criticism. Does everyone in your sleeper cell feel the same?
Funny thing, I’m about to take a plane to Vegas in two hours, and I’ll have to take off my shoes before I board - thanks to Islam.
If only it were truly a religion of peace instead of a death cult. It would make flying easier don’t you think?
[/quote]
If all of Islam is one giants death cult, then why aren’t they all terrorists? Why are we risking our necks in Iraq to give these murderers who belong to such a heathen faith that promotes such violence in Iraq? It doesn’t make any sense.
If all Muslims were Christian and we were Islamic, there would be an equal amount of terrorism today, I believe. Obviously, it would be different, but I’m sure the Bible could be used to justify terrorist actions just as well as the Koran.
[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
As a student of culture (anthropology), I must remind us all to remember that it is those who demand a literal belief in these ancient texts who must be watched out for. It is “true believers/fundamentalists” that are the problem when dealing with ancient religio-historical texts whose fit into modern global society is tenous at best.
[/quote]
Thank You! This is the smartest post in this whole thread.
Why do people want to judge ancient culture’s by todays standard? It makes no sense. In many ways they did what they had to do to survive.
I am no fan of Islam, but to judge them by a standard that we Christian’s simple dismiss on our own part is sad at best.
When you look at them by our standards of course they seem horrible. If you lived in their time though this would be how you survived.
“If all of Islam is one giants death cult, then why aren’t they all terrorists? Why are we risking our necks in Iraq to give these murderers who belong to such a heathen faith that promotes such violence in Iraq? It doesn’t make any sense.”
Not all of islam, a deadlly segment of them. You pick the percentage. The one’s that are always shouting that “we love death like you love life”. Those aiming for the 72 virgins for blowing yourself up. Those folks…
[quote]John S. wrote:
orion wrote:
Again, you have no idea what your talking about. God was vengeful because of every sin considered an attack on him and in need of a sacrifice.
[/quote]
I’m sorry but that is a retarded explination of the passages that one guy quoted, and is not Biblical.
correct.
correct.
correct.
[quote]
as long as you ask for forgiveness.[/quote]
incorrect.
You seem to be associating the Law with God’s vengence. That is not correct. If it was God would have imposed these sanctions on all the other nations. Which He didn’t.
The Law was meant for a theocratic society/government. Something the Hebrew’s allowed/wanted at the time.
That was also Biblical justice to keep the society pure, and untainted for the head of the theocracy.
While the OT refer’s to God as vengeful in many places, It is more accurate to say He is Justice. The sacrifice’s were not to pay off a vengeful God. They were meant to to atone for one’s sins.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
John S. wrote:
orion wrote:
Again, you have no idea what your talking about. God was vengeful because of every sin considered an attack on him and in need of a sacrifice.
I’m sorry but that is a retarded explination of the passages that one guy quoted, and is not Biblical.
Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Now since you do not understand ultimate sacrifice I will take the time to explain it too you.
correct.
The ultimate sacrifice(Jesus) died to take all the sins of the world from past present and future.
correct.
Meaning God was no longer vengeful for every sin
correct.
as long as you ask for forgiveness.
incorrect.
You seem to be associating the Law with God’s vengence. That is not correct. If it was God would have imposed these sanctions on all the other nations. Which He didn’t.
The Law was meant for a theocratic society/government. Something the Hebrew’s allowed/wanted at the time.
That was also Biblical justice to keep the society pure, and untainted for the head of the theocracy.
While the OT refer’s to God as vengeful in many places, It is more accurate to say He is Justice. The sacrifice’s were not to pay off a vengeful God. They were meant to to atone for one’s sins.
[/quote]
Are you implying that we do not have to ask God for forgiveness? Im sure we do. I was saying that thats what the sacrifices where for. But God was vengeful because of the sin. On the first part me and you will have to agree to dissagree.
Tokoya-
You an evangelical Christian?
[quote]John S. wrote:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
This will explain things a lot better then I can.[/quote]
A pity, because it still sucks to be a woman under that interpretation.
[quote]Titus 2:4-5
http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/56-14.htm
Ephesians 5:22-24, 5:33
Colossians 3:18 This is part 19.
Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them."
1 Peter 3:1-7
http://www.tmch.net/1pt_3_1_7.htm
1 Corinthians 11:3-9, 14:34-35
Can be answered in my other links.[/quote]
There’s no “answer” there. At best there’s some weaseling, some “alternate interpretations” (which is the most common trick to pacify the passages with too much tooth and claw) and grasping at straws to try and soften the blow of the harshest passages.
I have and it hasn’t changed what I knew about these passages a bit.