Livestream Debate Between Danny Bossa and Viking Alternative Medicine

I sent you plenty that demonstrate raising estradiol provides benefits. When it is lower, they don’t have those benefits. Did you read them?

If you disagree, for the tenth time, provide your evidence that estradiol should be lowered for men on TRT.

Can you, yes or no. Your next reply needs to have evidence. If you can’t provide any, stop replying. If youi reply again with zero evidence you are confirming that you are a waste of time.

Remember you’re the guy going around telling everyone to get off their AIs so the burden of proof is on you to show they are harmful at small dosages that put one’s E2 level between 20-40. So once again:

tenor

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I’ve provided evidence that the higher the estradiol, the better the benefits. 5 papers on the same subject. You’re stating I somehow haven’t which is ridiculous.

I have another 95 or so papers on the same topic.

Instead, you reject my evidence and claim that E2 needs to be lowered in men. Therefore I requested that you provide your evidence that demonstrates a direct contradiction to what I have provided.

The burden of proof was on me. I provided actual science yet you claim it is all wrong. Every single paper is wrong. Demonstrate how it is wrong.

I can provide over 100 papers on this very subject. At that point, I will have run out and will have nothing further to provide you. You would reject all of them. Can you provide anything that demonstrates that the papers I have provided are incorrect.

If you can’t, the issue becomes that I appear to be the only person providing evidence. Had I provided just one paper, I’d understand as it could be considered cherry picking. I provided 5 papers and you have provided none. You can’t just state all my papers are wrong but provide zero evidence to back that up.

If you provided 5 papers, I cannot in good faith just claim they are all wrong unless I can demonstrate why. This is what you are failing to do.

I have demonstrated above that raising estradiol provides benefits. You are claiming this is false. If you believe it to be false, provide your evidence.

If you cannot provide evidence, concede defeat to the fact that you are unable to demonstrate that those papers are wrong.

There is no possible way for me to make this any clearer. If either of you reply with nothing to demonstrate they are wrong, concede that you are making a baseless, warrantless statement that you are simply unable to backup.

Just in case, here are thirteen more studies and articles:

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1Ml3jnxdxpBTc3kKIIpW3KT5CqrwIdjuG?usp=sharing

I’ve now provided EIGHTEEN papers, not including the toxicity papers up above. Let me guess, they are all wrong, correct?

Prove it. I have provided eighteen papers and you have provided none.

Once again I have to remind you that you are not God and you don’t get to determine the rules or set the parameters of the debate. Hundreds of commentators have said that they personally feel better when they control their estrogen. Here is one example:

dialled estrogen

Now you go around and tell people like this that they should get off of their AIs. Doing so, the debate parameters are set and it is now your burden to show any freaking study, just one freaking study that shows harm from reducing Estrogen through the use of low dose AIs to bring E2 between 20-40.

If you can’t do this in your next response…if you can’t bring even a single study in your next response then you have the lost the debate and should stop telling men like the gentleman in this post to get off their AIs…Jesus what unmitigated gall you have.

Your very next response Danny…no more BSing, no more dissembling.

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Logic 101 (which you are having a hard time with)

The more you raise, the more the benefits. I’ve demonstrated that.

This means if you are at 20 and raise it to 30, you have improved your health. If you are at 30 and raise to 40 you have improved your health.

Therefore, if you are at 40 and go down to 30, you will be less healthy, since 40 is healthier than 30, or 20.

The papers demonstrate this. I won’t provide any more as I provided 13 papers. If you claim they are all false, provide your evidence that going from any number down to any number improves health, as you have failed to provide anything that contradicts it after countless requests.

The onus is now on YOU as I have completely demonstrated my position.

Lie…you haven’t.

Another lie.

Yet another lie.

They do not at all.

More BSing and more dissembling all because you cannot produce a single freaking study that shows any harm in using low dose AIs to bring E2 between 20-40.

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@Chris_Colucci message me if/when these two clowns are no longer part of this forum and I’ll return to continue assisting men as I always have. Otherwise it becomes a shit show of people making arguments that they refuse to backup regardless of how many requests we make. I always provide evidence to back up my claims and I provided no less than thirteen papers where they just argue that they are all useless.

If this is how things are here, I want no part of it.

Reading these studies is continuing to be interesting.

The estradiol enhanced fat metabolism is full of various studies (all on animals, mice rats hamsters and sheep) but did show that e2 helps in fat metabolism in males and females. More so for females, and they did find that the amount needed for males would make their e2 supra-physiologic and the researchers actually argued against doing that. They didn’t establish what level that actually was.

Another one on castrated male mice where testosterone without AI lowered fat mass, and testosterone plus AI also lowered fat mass, just not as much. Again, no levels or numbers.

A third showed that the appetite suppression seen from e2 was likely by suppression of cortisol, not activation of the e2 receptor (beta)

Not trying to keep the argument going, but I’m hooked on the studies now lol

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Ok now we’re at the human trials, the two references did show a concurrent affect of e2, both contributing to fat metabolism but also lipo-genesis to great storage needed for the excess calories. Both likely happening at the same time, so fat loss would be dependent on activity and nutrition and says not to take any single observation without added context.

One trial gave men gel, or gel plus daily Letro. Guess which group lost weight lol

Second trial did the same thing but with daily anastrozole. They weren’t measuring fat mass loss, but the highest they got the TT to was 337ng lol. So even the non-AI group lost muscle mass in all but the highest dose.

These are just poorly designed experiments really. The information is barely useful for real-world practice.

I really wish everyone would at least agree on that. And I wish someone would actually do a decent trial of medium high levels of T along with no AI, “reasonable” AI (I know, I know, don’t hunt me down anyone) and stupid high AI to see the differences in something that’s more realistic for the TRT world. I really can’t believe no one has done something like that yet?

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Right? Like I’d pay to fund that study, and volunteer for it too

Me too

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Ok last one, the telomere length study, and the most interesting one (or so I had hoped)

“In an observational study of 2,913 community-dwelling older men, men who had higher levels of estradiol had longer telomeres, a measure of younger biological age”

What’s the saying, correlation isn’t causation?

These findings suggest that sex hormones might influence biological aging in men. A randomized controlled trial would be needed to test what the effects of [treatment with testosterone] which is converted to estradiol, are on telomere length in men.”

“Yeap said the causality cannot be inferred from an observational, cross-sectional study, adding that additional research is needed to determine whether sex hormone exposure modulates male biological aging.”

They tested these old guys for T, DHT, e2 and SHBG and found a positive correlation between e2 and telomere length, but not the other hormones. No actual levels or ranges were given

It’s hard to design a study that wouldn’t be picked apart by detractors.

Not surprising. But it seems like it’d still be better than anything else out there right now.

If any of you are into the literature and research studies, this paper is fascinating. Its focus is on HRT and women, particularly discussing the Women’s Health Initiative and the Nurses’ Health Study. However, its a great lesson on evaluation of studies in general. It even points out one study which was used to support both sides of the argument.

March-April 2009 - Volume 15 - Issue 2

Hormone Replacement Therapy: Real Concerns and False Alarms

https://journals.lww.com/journalppo/Abstract/2009/04000/Hormone_Replacement_Therapy__Real_Concerns_and.1.aspx

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They also wrote a book together called, “Estrogen Matters” and were on a podcast recently discussing the whole thing. I think most of this crowd that enjoys the science behind it all will really like it.

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interesting topic here.
My 2 cents: i do aromatize very fast. Sometimes i just let it flow and dont take AI. BUT when after a week or 2 weeks my cock wont be hard even tho i am horny as fuck and my face looks like a balloon then i take a 1/4 pill of AI and i feel way better.
I am sure with aromasin its even much better to controll estrogen. Thats why i will use it in the future.

I dont understand why there is such a debate on AI and where it came from…some people need it and some people dont. my grandmother smoked cigarettes for her whole life. She died in a natural way, My grandfother who was a fit guy doing sport his whole life and had a great middle eastern diet died from lung cancer.

Honestly i dont think AI will kill you as long as you lower your estrogen in middle or upper middle ranges.
as you see i am very chill what means my estro is in the middle range:-)

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Drug debate aside,

Did you just do a live broadcast of you giving your winning formula, backed by rigorous academic investigation to a practicing professional,

And now you’re calling everybody else stupid?

:thinking:

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