T Nation

Little Experiment: EQ and Mast

Ladies and gentlemen… and others who identify as whatever they want…

within regard to me taking androgen replacement into my own hands there’s a concept I’ve been fiddling with for a while that I’ve decided to try. Testosterone… in general has been a rather tricky hormone for me to manage, in higher dosages it appears to induce more unpleasant side effect comparative to numerous other AAS I’ve tried… the side effects pertaining to

  • excessive sweating/terrible BO
  • Autonomic dysfunction (this pretty much only occurs with test actually. I have some degree of autonomic/CNS dysfunction related to fibromyalgia regardless though)
  • Androgenic side effects (body hair out of control…) this is genetic, but I have it particularly bad, and TRT has made the condition quite a bit worse and it isn’t slowing down… genes for balding appear to be in my favour though, as in… I probably won’t go bald
  • Water retention, compared to say how I look on masteron, anavar, nandrolone etc I tend to hold a looooooot of water on test (say anything above 125mg weekly, and I cruise on 200)… I feel good, but good god is it unaesthetic. Despite my level of insight regarding numerous situations, I’m still a vein shallow teenage boy who tends to make irresponsible decisions at times… I don’t like the bloated, watery look testosterone in particular gives me.

My thought process goes like this

  • Ask my doc for a low dose dieuretic (bad idea, don’t want to be messing with dieuretics)
  • Proviron/mast with trt (androgenic nature would make my ‘hairy’ situation worse, perhaps a very low dose like 50mg mast weekly (cut test dose by 50mg) or 25mg proviron/day (with oral bioavailability of 3% I’d be getting less than 7mg mesterolone/wk)
  • Trial EQ as a TRT substitute… I’ve thought about this before, but with time constraints between bloods I haven’t been able to. I’ve heard boldenone is considerably less potent compared to test mg/mg, thus I’m not entirely sure how much I’d want for it to equate to the equivalent 200mg test. The very long ester does mean that mg/mg there’s considerably less base hormone compared to test e/c, say perhaps almost 10mg base hormone less in 100mg. Then there’s the facet of whether it can provide adequate neurological regulation, or is a DHT derivative esque compound known for inducing a feeling of wellbeing required (like mesterolone at 25 mg daily)… but I’m trying to avoid excessive androgenicity… BUT 25mg is a very low dose

However my quealms relate within

  • that’s two androgens stacked together for prolonged use
  • What are the long term implications, we all know they aren’t great, but is it going to take 5-10 years off my life or 40 years off?

I don’t intend on running a flat out cycle (again, I don’t ever plan to go heavier than what my last cycle was with the 250mg test 100mg mast for six weeks and 20mg dbol for 2.5 wks on top of the test/mast) for at LEAST 6-12 months, I’m just looking for ART that meets the goals I have (including getting a slight extra “kick” compared to outright physiology if you catch my drift). I don’t feel as if I have the level of responsibility/maturity at the moment to handle blasting “big boy doses” (say 5-600mg/wk)… although that’s exactly what I did in December for 2.5 wks (250mg test 100mg mast 20mg dbol), and thus the notion of running a flat out cycle is being put off for the time being.

I’d prefer my total mg of hormones/wk to be at or under 300mg weekly. So… I guess my question is, what would (say anyone who has used EQ before) be comparable to that of 200mg test weekly? I’ve heard of people using EQ for trt, the supposed effects on erythropoiesis would be beneficial as I am anaemic (haemoglobin about 135 last time it was checked)… this is due to prolonged bleeding due to haemorrhoids, the bleeding has stopped as it was due to intensive exercise (valsalva manoeuvre)… however as I get back to gym it’ll start up again, in which case I have to go back to my doctor and look at more invasive surgical options as rubber band ligation appears to have not corrected the issue (and come on… I’m not going to stop deadlifting/ squatting). For anyone who has potentially tried this, is EQ alone adequate in terms of providing neurological homeostasis (primarily looking at libido maintenance)

Not particularly worried about the potential effect regarding anxiety, boldenone does appear to uniquely hold an elevated risk regarding nephrotoxicity/kidney damage, otherwise ehhh, I’d stipulate it’s one of the safer compounds to use. I’ve pretty much decided to go through with this experiment, just unsure on dosages… obviously the cardiovascular risk will be higher (bigger hit on lipids, the hormone is entirely synthetic/not naturally produced, very little data regarding the hormone and it’s interaction with numerous systems of the body)… does appear to elicit quite a bit of damage via inducing oxidive stress

Gonna perhaps give @Singhbuilder a fat tag here as I believe he has run compounds other than test for TRT

Ah I see the scientist in you. Pretty much a younger version of me, I was the one of the first to try the low test high tren approach when all others said so many bad things would happen. Its good to experiment, thats what makes us scientists after all.

To get straight into it, I feel your choice of trialing EQ in place of testosterone is a good idea. Personally I have not run Boldenone WITHOUT testosterone, however I have run it with low testosterone (as low as 100mg/wk). My dosages of EQ the two times I have run it have been 600mg and 1g (currently running this).

It will be difficult to give a comparison or an equivalent dose to 200mg Testosterone, but personally, I would start at maybe 200-250mg EQ with 50-100mg of a DHT-based compound. Remember EQ does take a while to build up, so I would taper off the testosterone over a 4-6 week period while the EQ reaches peak concentration. If like me, EQ sits well with you, I think you will be pleased with its benefits over Testosterone. This includes appetite stimulation, higher anabolism, better cardio from erythropoiesis, lower oestrogen production.

Obviously you will carry out bloods to check hematocrit once peak levels are achieved, but at such a low dose of EQ, I think you should be fine.

I will be following this experiment very closely, as health is going to be my priority once I come off my blast. With all the damage it will have caused, I will be looking at ways to stay healthy but still retain muscle gains, and EQ should hold onto gains more than Testosterone during TRT.

My apologies if any of these points seem condescending given your knowledge.

SB

Not condescending at all, I’ll be doing quite a bit of research on EQ in the upcoming weeks.

As to a DHT stacker, it’ll probs be proviron or masteron. Masteron (albeit weakly) still aids in regard to anabolism. Mesterolone is inactivated within skeletal muscle tissue via 3-hsd, and the oral bioavailability is very low. If I take 50mg proviron daily, I’m getting 10.5 base hormone per week… not much at all (but still enough to give that sense of well-being… however the superhuman feeling one may get is temporary… the effects compounds like mast/proviron have on dopamine are probably acute… that being said in terms of neurological maintenance it’d probably be adequate. Fun fact, mesterolone (high dose, primarily injectable preparation) has been trialed as use for clinical depression, small trials found to to be equally effective comparative to tricyclic antidepressants available at the time.

Could use mast as I still have some left over… hmm… both mast/proviron will impact my lipids, but masteron specifically has the potential to induce changes in cardiac parameters, whilst mesterolone due to its affinity to the 3-HSD enzyme may not… HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmMmmmmmm… there’s also the fact I’ve never used proviron before, and there’s always that residual excitement when you something new… BUT it’s very expensive… BUT I can get pharmaceutical grade proviron… lots of things to think about here

My hct doesn’t budge on dbol, test, mast etc. I do think I’ll be fine (although last time my haemaglobin was checked at 135… I donated blood a few days after that (I’ve specified time and time again I don’t always make good decisions) as it’s a good deed (I’m aware of the “have you ever injected drugs… even once without a doctors prescription”… not going any further here, not going to further incriminate myself lol… for the next few weeks (this was right before I went away to Europe) I felt very sick, pale, very symptomatic.) however I’ll keep a close eye on my health parameters

Agreed… but regarding my holiday in Europe… Aside from the partying, the poor dietary habits as it’s all I can afford… last night was the first night I’d gotten over say 3-4 hours of sleep in the last 5 days… not healthy at all currently, I look like a disheveled mess… I haven’t shaved in a good three weeks and now I’m sporting this gross, unkempt beard. I was sick for a while, went to the GP who prescribed me cough syrup with codiene in it (cyp2d6 ultra rapid metaboliser so a therapeutic dose of codiene is a “fun” dose for me)… not really something safe to be messing with considering opiates wreck havoc on society, I’ve seen what they can do (through relatives and friends of friends) to people… once again… bad decisions… and I had a cough so bad I simply couldn’t sleep at night… So I had the bottle in my backpack which I travel with and I didn’t close the lid properly, now the entire bag is fucked… the zippers are clogged, looks like someone threw up all over my backpack, not to mention the stuff is all over the pants I had in there…

I almost broke my 3.5 year dry spell, (long story) with a woman who was far older than me (bout 30) (recall the convo when I said I was 18 “you’re 18!!!” “Yes” “really???” “Yes” “well you’re 28 tonight”… me ‘gulps’ “yeet”. I’ve had to show my ID once or twice to prove I’m 18… for the opposite reasons one would usually have to show ID for (to prove that I’m not say… 25), this was to other kids though, no establishment has asked me for ID aside from one coffee shop in AmStErDaM… speaking of which, I just landed in AmStErDaM last night… it’s a sick city, gonna see if I can afford to rent a bike and floop around

But I’d given away my condoms to someone else who needed them… God DAMMIT… I was alone at the time so it wasn’t as if I had someone I could’ve borrowed one off of

On paper EQ has an AAS ratio of 100:50, and is about half as estrogenic as test. I am not sure how well that 100 holds up in reality. I have my theories about why EQ is seen as weak.

It doesn’t cause as much water retention. So less weight is gained. Perception is big in AAS.

It is long estered, so it takes a while to kick in. You won’t get as much out of it in a 10 week cycle as you would test.

It is less androgenic. You feel less horny mg per mg.

I do wonder long term if EQ would come very close to that 100 anabolic rating. I know a guy who “cruises” on 300 test and 700 EQ. He is jacked.

EQ is something that interests me a bunch as it has favorable androgenic properties and favorable E2 conversion.

“I need to stop by the drug store, gas station…”

Not in Cordoba at 3am… esp if no one in the situation is sober… might’ve been closer to 4?

EQ due to its properties (less aromatisation etc) is probably less anabolic mg/mg comparative to test (and anecdotally certainly is)

As to you’re buddies cruise, he will probably be the biggest bro in the cemetery 20 years from now

I told him to cut it back. I actually think he is healthier now than he was previously. Before I knew him, he was into alot more AAS (tren) and also meth. So, although what he is doing is certainly not healthy, it has to be better than tren and meth. He did say meth was one hell of a pre workout.

I don’t think I will get him to go down to say 200 mg of test, but I am pushing for 200 test with 300 EQ as an incremental improvement.

The guy is freaky. He is about 5’10" 225lbs at a very low bodyfat, and can get close to hitting his head on a basketball rim (easy for him to dunk).

Have you considered running something like 100 test 200 EQ for your cruise? The androgenic and estrogenic response would be about the same as 200 test, but I would think it would kick more. Not sure though.

Hi @unreal24278

I have been on TRT (not diagnosed with t deficiency) for about 12 months. Initially T200 a week subQ with 50mg Proviron ED.

As like you, I find that test in excess of ± 150mg per week results in moon face, not exactly aesthetically pleasing. To combat this I have also been experimenting quite a bit.

Initially I dropped the dose to 100mg per week but I found that at that amount my gym performance began to dip (my compound lifts stalled). To combat the lack of strength gains i decided to blast and cruise with Tbol as I seem to do well on that compound…UNTIL i got my bloodwork done midway through the 6 week Tbol cycle. HDL was down to 0.8 - Fuck that shit - No more orals for me.

I found myself in almost the EXACT position as you. Besides the body hair and Anemia.

I added Boldenone to my TRT protocol but did not want to exceed 250 Mgrams of androgens a week. I dropped my test to 50mg a week and added 180mg of Boldenone a week. Its been ± 8 weeks and i am due to go see the doc soon for Hcrit and lipids.

Because my strength gains and overall hysique is less “wet” on my current protocol i thought about cruising on this dosage for life until i discovered that some research suggests boldenone is quite toxic to the kidneys. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29148625 - it seems more so than even Dbol and Deca. One done on rabbits https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21878449.

Not saying that one cannot cruise on eq/boldenone but you will want to also monitor your kidney bio markers.

I’m not sure where I will go from here but i will report back when i get my bloods.

Other comments:
T improves my sex drive more than Boldenone.
50mg of proviron doesnt seem to affect my lipids at all.
T is about 60% stronger in my opinion as it results in slightly more strength gains like for like.
No bloat face on B180mg and T50mg per week.

edit: milligrams not grams

@protonz3 think this is a bad idea. Why not just dial in the test dose to where your testosterone levels are at the upper end of the range, and your E2 isn’t too high so you don’t get bloat? Sounds like this is around 100mg/wk for you. If you really want to add something on top of that, you can add something like Primo at 100mg/wk, which is safer than EQ to use long-term and has zero water retention. 50mg of test a week is probably going to put your levels at the bottom of the range, and you’ll probably get worse gains than on 100mg of test alone.

As a side note, I’m curious to see what your E2 levels are with 180mg EQ / 50mg test, since I’ve heard of guys crashing their E2 if the EQ:T ratio is too high.

@unreal24278 My answer to the question you asked in your original post is the same. Find the highest test dose where you feel good with no AI and no negative side effects (such as bloating). Add primo at 100-200mg/wk on top of that. In my opinion primo is healthier than EQ or masteron, and from personal experience my bloodwork is perfect at doses that low combined with test. EQ has way more side effects and is a veterinarian drug used by horses, Primo has been prescribed by doctors since the 60s for long term use in humans in certain situations.

@cguy That would be ideal but although I am on the lean side (7% calipers so about 12% in reality) I seem to be very prone to aromatisation.

In regards to primo - that was next on my list to try and maybe mast after that. I was concerned about polycythaemia and thats why I had opted for EQ originally but i’ll likely come off it because I think i’m a fan of my kidneys.

I think you’re right about the T ranges but unsure about the e2 as I do seem to aromatise quite a lot. For example I tried to purposefully crash my E2 using Adex - I was up to 2mg a day, still bloat and If i recall correctly at that dose it has diminishing returns and it can impair kidney function.

I then tried Letro, which I at first was cautious about, started at about 0.5mg a day and still the same moon face with BP around 140/80. I upped it to 1mg a day and really thought at that dosage it would crush my e2 - it did not. I then stumbled upon the post by Bill roberts where he reports that he cruises on 250 to 300mg of boldenone.

This is a journey for me and I guess what I still need to do at some point is get my bloods done when I am bloated - to make sure it really is my e2. I plan on seeing an endo this year as well. I still need to also try aromasin if i venture down this avenue again. I also did try different brands - I still could not crush my E2.

I’d be interested in if @physioLojik has seen non responders to AI’s before because I unfortunately seem to be quite the anomaly and i know he is big into not taking AI’s unnecessarily.

@cguy Thank you for the info on primo - I will do some research on its effects on humans and I hope its a viable option for me too. Has it not affected your HCT at all?

I ran my TRT dose of 150mg/wk test with 200mg/wk primo for 16 weeks between blasts and saw no meaningful change in HCT. My bloods at the end also saw no changes in my HDL/LDL or liver enzymes for what it’s worth.

If you do decide on Primo make sure it’s from a very reputable source since it’s often faked. It’s also quite expensive, but well worth it.

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Yes, I’ve seen the studies regarding EQ sand nephrotoxicity. However all AAS are implicated (high dosages) within inducing long term, extensive kidney damage/scarring (particularly FSGS)… not unique to boldenone, however boldenone does appear to be somewhat more nephrotoxic than many parenatal injectable preparations (barring tren lololol)

Sorry for bad grammar, old phone… cracked screen… atrocious autocorrect

Can’t afford primo at 130$/vial… yet

So then what was/is your plan to combat the impact to the kidneys? Or do you think at trt level type dosages these would not be nephrotoxic? Lol, wouldn’t call tren parenatal. My poor grammar is intention😉

Yup, got definitions mixed up. Let’s call it… exogenously intoduced pharmaceutical

No… I don’t think one should be running/cruising on EQ. Not as safe as running just test on a cruise. However as individuals we are free to make our own decisions. How extensive will the nephrotoxicity will be? Who knows, many run exorbitantly high dosages of EQ (don’t approve of this) and come out fine… however the long term effect is largely unknown (same can be said about test… even in replacement dosages… esp in unhealthy demographics)

Long term cardiovascular, endocrine, neurological implications in part due to introducing a synthetic derivative of testosterone for long term “HRT” are unknown, and at this point I wouldn’t call what I’m doing TRT, it’s a “glorified cruise”. Considering I d

I don’t bloat per se due to aromatisation. I’d hypothesise it’s due to testosterones effect on adrenals, RAAS alterations etc.

No plan, I’m young and dumb… I’d hypothesise regarding nephrotoxicity there is a big difference between 200-250mg EQ and the 600-1000mg+ doses people routinely run. I haven’t made up my mind yet. It’s lookig like it’ll be EQ/proviron for a while, however I might try the test/primo if I can acquire legit primo.

I have a source that sells the legit pharmaceutically produced primobolan (1ml ampoules in original packaging and everything)… but the cost is like 70$ for 3ml, can’t afford that when I have to pay for gas, rent (Parents want me out lol), food/going out… pretty much everything

To further back up the EQ nephrotoxicity claim… there’s a recent study in which participants self administer exorbitant dosages of stacked AAS… only group that appeared to acquire some semblance of impaired renal functioning/markers regarding renal function deteriorated was in the group using boldenone as part of the stack.

Interesting. I would not have thought EQ to be hard on the kidneys. I am starting to re-think a future EQ cycle. The anxiety is also not good for me.

I am getting close to 6 weeks in on 325 mg of test, and have not noticed high e2 symptoms, or high androgen symptoms other than a bit of acne. Starting the var in week. Maybe next cycle should just be higher test. I think due to my low dosage, I haven’t felt much yet, but do notice a bit, and people have commented that I am starting to look leaner and bigger (don’t notice it myself).

Ive never had high E2 symptoms from test, I’ve gotten bloating and acne. Though the acne is present on any dose… only time I don’t get acne is when I’m hypogonadal (say TT below 250)

All anabolics, esp c17aa such as anavar are hard on the kidneys (and all c17aa orals will almost certainly be harder on the kidneys compared to EQ)

Hell… oxandrolone (uniquely amongst other oral AAS) is primarily metabolised through the kidneys

Acne for me, but no bloating. Yes, the var is worse on the kidneys and lipids, but I plan on running it for 6 weeks. The EQ cycle was going to be for something crazy like 20 weeks (200 test 400 EQ). I am starting to think just higher test is the way to go, and for shorter blasts (12 weeks).

There just is not all out winning with AAS. I thought EQ was the answer, fairly clean, cheap, easy to obtain… I should just skip the EQ. Anxiety is bad enough on TRT.

Primo is supposedly safer…ish if you can get it legit

I’ve seen a study in which postmenopausal women with inoperative ER positive carcinoma of the breast were given over 1000mg weekly for 12 weeks or something… it was fairly well tolerated

Not to say it’s safe at all, this is a worst case, life or death scenario they’re treating… not some guys looking to make phat gainz

Nvm it was 1200mg weekly for 16 wks
https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/1097-0142(196802)21%3A2<197%3A%3AAID-CNCR2820210207>3.0.CO%3B2-R

Very old study

Primo is good, but $150 a vial, and it is usually 100 mg/mL. I have heard EQ called crappy Primo, but at $50 a vial and 250 mg/mL it is much more appealing.