T Nation

Lighter and Cleaning More

Hello, my name is josh, I weigh 165 lbs 11% bodyfat 5’8

2 weeks ago I weighed 170 lbs and was
12% bodyfat and my clean was 200lbs

Now I can clean 210lbs

At what bodyfat % do you think this will stop happening

I think my clean went up because the lighter yu are the faster you can recove and you can use more volume

It could be because you’re lighter and faster, I’ve seen something similar happen to myself. I’ve lost about twelve pounds over the past four or five months and my snatch and clean and jerk just continue going up. If you plan on competing as I do, it’s a wonderful thing.

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
Hello, my name is josh, I weigh 165 lbs 11% bodyfat 5’8

2 weeks ago I weighed 170 lbs and was
12% bodyfat and my clean was 200lbs

Now I can clean 210lbs

At what bodyfat % do you think this will stop happening

I think my clean went up because the lighter yu are the faster you can recove and you can use more volume[/quote]

There’s absolutely no way to predict that.

I highly doubt that your dropping of 5lbs really would have that much of an effect on your clean.

You probably just got stronger.

What are you training for? Are you competeing?

The key to raising your clean is going to be getting stronger and working on technique, not losing bodyfat.

-MAtt

Ummm assuming those weight and bf figures are right, and assuming I got my calculations right, you lost about 2.5-3lbs of muscle so I very much doubt that’s why you’re clean’s better.

It’s probably because you’re just getting stronger and more efficent!

I might want to compete in Olympic lifting what are good numbers to strive for if I weigh 165-200 lbs(I know my numbers aren’t that good right now as I am 18 years old)

I do plan on doing more powerlifting meets my best lifts are a 250 squat( did a 270 ATG at home)205 bench and a 450 deadlift while weighing 175 lbs(all raw lifts)

this happened to me too,
Watch out for your bf, u dont want to go below your set point or else performance will suffer. Your CNS probably just got more efficient.

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
I might want to compete in Olympic lifting what are good numbers to strive for if I weigh 165-200 lbs(I know my numbers aren’t that good right now as I am 18 years old)

I do plan on doing more powerlifting meets my best lifts are a 250 squat( did a 270 ATG at home)205 bench and a 450 deadlift while weighing 175 lbs(all raw lifts)[/quote]

So, your plan is to avoid gaining any more body weight but attempt to increase your strength by how much?

The first time I hit 205lbs on a bench press, I was younger than you and didn’t think that made me special at all. There were guys stronger than me so I got bigger and stronger. It seems that quite a few of you are holding your progress BACK because you seem to be afraid of actually gaining body weight.

I could see if you were just naturally extremely strong…but you aren’t.

if you are after relative strength i suggest you manipulate your bodyweight in cycles. Gaining weight and cutting it back and gaining it back and so on. You just have to know how to maintain your strength and power to weight ration when you cut.

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
if you are after relative strength i suggest you manipulate your bodyweight in cycles. Gaining weight and cutting it back and gaining it back and so on. You just have to know how to maintain your strength and power to weight ration when you cut.[/quote]

That’s no different than most lifters in terms of approach. The only difference, the goal is to get ABSOLUTELY STRONG, not hold back progress worrying about how “relative” it is…especially when the guy doing so isn’t really all that strong in the first place. You worry about how “relative” it is when your strength is better than most and you are trying to compete in a powerlifting contest because of it. Build the size and strength before you start cutting back calories to avoid gains in body mass.

Otherwise, you are putting the cart before the horse as tired as that cliche is.

Also, a lot of people are probably going into cycling their body weight too often and in intervals too short to see long term progress.

You seem to be arguing against your own point, X. You can worry about relative strength at any stage depending on your goals. Being big for the sake of being big is not compatible with some people’s goals.

I know for myself that I rarely concentrated on maximal strength but always focused on hypertrophy and big eating. While I personally can’t see myself wanting to be under 200lbs year round purely from an aesthetic standpoint, I know that that I would be a lot more competitive in powerlifting if I had focused on maximal strength, not eating quite so much, and doing less hypertrophy work. Competeing in the 181s with the same numbers, I’d be a lot better off than in the 198s or 220s.

It depends on what the individual wants to do.

But gaining muscle without a high proportion of strength to size gains is rarely beneficial in most athletes unless they are in need of size for some specific concern.

-MAtt

[quote]Professor X wrote:
digitalairair wrote:
if you are after relative strength i suggest you manipulate your bodyweight in cycles. Gaining weight and cutting it back and gaining it back and so on. You just have to know how to maintain your strength and power to weight ration when you cut.

That’s no different than most lifters in terms of approach. The only difference, the goal is to get ABSOLUTELY STRONG, not hold back progress worrying about how “relative” it is…especially when the guy doing so isn’t really all that strong in the first place. You worry about how “relative” it is when your strength is better than most and you are trying to compete in a powerlifting contest because of it. Build the size and strength before you start cutting back calories to avoid gains in body mass.

Otherwise, you are putting the cart before the horse as tired as that cliche is.

Also, a lot of people are probably going into cycling their body weight too often and in intervals too short to see long term progress.[/quote]

[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
You seem to be arguing against your own point, X. You can worry about relative strength at any stage depending on your goals. Being big for the sake of being big is not compatible with some people’s goals.
[/quote]

How is that arguing against my own point? You have a lot of these guys who really aren’t that strong (since when is a 205lbs bench press in the “strong” category?) acting like they are pro competitors in powerlifting when the truth is, just like bodybuilding, genetics have much to do with how strong someone can get at a lesser weight.

It seems that many are afraid to say that. Just because you WANT to be “relatively strong” for your weight doesn’t mean you will get that way without gaining any appreciable amounts of muscle mass and overall body weight.

If someone were naturally stronger than average, I would be more inclined to believe they are “genetically inclined” to be “relatively strong” for their weight and can thusly win some competitions at a weight less than most with greater strength.

Many would do better simply increasing their size AND strength instead of hoping and wishing they just magically increase their strength dramatically without any gains in size.

Neural adaptation can only get you so far.

Realizing that not everyone is naturally strong is simply reality.

Absolute strength trumps “relative strength” unless you are competing in a powerlifting contest with a weight class. Why would someone at his stage even think they are cut out for competition? That is no different than the 150lbs guys in the pic forum claiming they are about to compete in bodybuilding contests when they have only been lifting for 4 months and don’t have any size on them yet.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Matt McGorry wrote:
You seem to be arguing against your own point, X. You can worry about relative strength at any stage depending on your goals. Being big for the sake of being big is not compatible with some people’s goals.

How is that arguing against my own point? You have a lot of these guys who really aren’t that strong (since when is a 205lbs bench press in the “strong” category?) acting like they are pro competitors in powerlifting when the truth is, just like bodybuilding, genetics have much to do with how strong someone can get at a lesser weight.

It seems that many are afraid to say that. Just because you WANT to be “relatively strong” for your weight doesn’t mean you will get that way without gaining any appreciable amounts of muscle mass and overall body weight.

If someone were naturally stronger than average, I would be more inclined to believe they are “genetically inclined” to be “relatively strong” for their weight and can thusly win some competitions at a weight less than most with greater strength.

Many would do better simply increasing their size AND strength instead of hoping and wishing they just magically increase their strength dramatically without any gains in size.

Neural adaptation can only get you so far.

Realizing that not everyone is naturally strong is simply reality.

Absolute strength trumps “relative strength” unless you are competing in a powerlifting contest with a weight class. Why would someone at his stage even think they are cut out for competition? That is no different than the 150lbs guys in the pic forum claiming they are about to compete in bodybuilding contests when they have only been lifting for 4 months and don’t have any size on them yet.[/quote]

I think that the genetics will only take you so far no matter what weight class. I feel that a 181lb powerlifter will have an equally as tough time hitting elite as a 220lb one. The numbers that they have to achieve are simply greater in comparisn.

But, if you look at most lighter-weight powerlifters, they try to spend as long as possible in a given weight class before they move up to the next one.

An individual’s limit strength is greatly determined by genetics, I agree with you there- but that’s why PLers will spend time building strength in a given weight range until their ability comes close to “tapping out” before moving up in weight.

I don’t consider myslelf a genetically gifted lifter (not that its going to stop me from being the best I can be) but for me, moving up in weight from 210lb to 230lb in order to move my bench from 300 to 320 would be a shitty choice.

I’m only speaking about this because I simply felt that I put on mass too quickly without having much regard for true strength. Only difference is that I’m making up for it now by closely monitoring my BW through food intake and exercise volume so that I can get stronger without the increased BW. I suppose the other way about it would be to slowly build up.

Depends how important competeing really is to the individual.

-MAtt

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
I might want to compete in Olympic lifting what are good numbers to strive for if I weigh 165-200 lbs(I know my numbers aren’t that good right now as I am 18 years old)

I do plan on doing more powerlifting meets my best lifts are a 250 squat( did a 270 ATG at home)205 bench and a 450 deadlift while weighing 175 lbs(all raw lifts)[/quote]

Ultimately you want to strive for a 1.5-2xBW snatch and a 2-2.3xBW c&j.

Your squat is relatively weak so I’d sugest on doing some squat specialization routine (smolov, maslaev) along with clean and snatch pulls and presses. With your rising squat and the upperbody work the big five will improve tremendously. Don’t forget to eat and sleep well.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

How is that arguing against my own point? You have a lot of these guys who really aren’t that strong (since when is a 205lbs bench press in the “strong” category?) acting like they are pro competitors in powerlifting when the truth is, just like bodybuilding, genetics have much to do with how strong someone can get at a lesser weight.[/quote]

I never said my bench is good(225 without 1 sec pause)I rarely train it. Their are better lifts to do such as push jerk 190 lbs for 6 reps

What is your deadlift? After I cut to 160 lbs I am going to bulk to 200 lbs gaining 1 lb a week

Professor X what weight should I bulk to 200,220 more? i’m 5’8

I want to be the best lifter I can be

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
Professor X what weight should I bulk to 200,220 more? i’m 5’8

I want to be the best lifter I can be[/quote]

I think you need to even avoid setting some weight limit right now and simply work on giving your body what it needs to grow bigger AND stronger. Since all out size isn’t the goal, why even worry about “bulking up” (a term that seems to be misused a hell of a lot lately)? Simply work on gaining period and trying to get as strong as possible.

What gets me is how guys in the prime of their lives would even think to hold back progress by trying to avoid gaining weight at all. Though I know many authors seem to try to separate the two, size and strength DO go hand in hand and always will unless anabolic use somehow skews the results seen. Some people are simply naturally stronger than others. That doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t get even stronger if they gained more muscle mass.

Who gains muscle by large amounts with no strength gains?

Take it slow, eat more and keep pushing yourself in the gym. Everyone wasn’t meant to be sub-170lbs with a 400lbs bench press. In fact, most people on the planet won’t be.

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
Professor X wrote:

How is that arguing against my own point? You have a lot of these guys who really aren’t that strong (since when is a 205lbs bench press in the “strong” category?) acting like they are pro competitors in powerlifting when the truth is, just like bodybuilding, genetics have much to do with how strong someone can get at a lesser weight.

I never said my bench is good(225 without 1 sec pause)I rarely train it. Their are better lifts to do such as push jerk 190 lbs for 6 reps

What is your deadlift? After I cut to 160 lbs I am going to bulk to 200 lbs gaining 1 lb a week

[/quote]

I don’t deadlift. Neither did Lee Haney. It isn’t exactly necessary to get bigger and stronger. It is simply popular.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ape Escape wrote:
Professor X wrote:

How is that arguing against my own point? You have a lot of these guys who really aren’t that strong (since when is a 205lbs bench press in the “strong” category?) acting like they are pro competitors in powerlifting when the truth is, just like bodybuilding, genetics have much to do with how strong someone can get at a lesser weight.

I never said my bench is good(225 without 1 sec pause)I rarely train it. Their are better lifts to do such as push jerk 190 lbs for 6 reps

What is your deadlift? After I cut to 160 lbs I am going to bulk to 200 lbs gaining 1 lb a week

I don’t deadlift. Neither did Lee Haney. It isn’t exactly necessary to get bigger and stronger. It is simply popular.[/quote]

Hell it’s not even neccessary to deadlift to get a strong deadlift according to Louie Simmons!

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I don’t deadlift. Neither did Lee Haney. It isn’t exactly necessary to get bigger and stronger. It is simply popular.[/quote]

Why doen’t you deadlift it is one of the best exercises for your posterior chain. Is it because they are too hard on your cardiovascular system, bad leverage

Deadlifts do build density and size look at that powerlifter on all Powerlifters are fat, his back is the freakiest back that I’ve seen

[quote]Ape Escape wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I don’t deadlift. Neither did Lee Haney. It isn’t exactly necessary to get bigger and stronger. It is simply popular.

Why doen’t you deadlift it is one of the best exercises for your posterior chain. Is it because they are too hard on your cardiovascular system, bad leverage

Deadlifts do build density and size look at that powerlifter on all Powerlifters are fat, his back is the freakiest back that I’ve seen

[/quote]

I don’t do them because I don’t want to do them and don’t need to do them. Why would I need a reason to not do them besides that? “Posterior chain” has become a great pop culture term in weight lifting. Do you believe your “posterior chain” is only worked by deadlifts? Deadlifts are not necessary. I may or may not add them back in down the road. I haven’t had anyone point out that I lack density or size.

I will also note that every guy who logs in under 170lbs claims a deadlift over 400lbs. I personally am not impressed.

If you do them, fine. I am not trying to get people to stop doing deadlifts which is why I normally avoid even getting into it. Many people are followers and can’t seem to think of weight lifting outside of articles and books by their favorite author. I think those same people will never understand how basic the concept of “drive” really is, how much of it this takes, or how it can overcome toting the “perfect” training program. Do what works, not just what’s popular.