Lifting Routine for Me?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Beginners
22

[quote]stuward wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
only if you’ve tried it yourself and succeeded.
from what im reading, everyone seems to praise this program. i have yet to look at it. i only wonder how many of you actually used the program yourself? that sounds like an asshole challenge but i speak with sincerity.

its one thing reading it and pondering whether it fits well with the trends, but a theory is only good as a million dollars locked up in a mausoleum.
to me, 5x5 wouldnt be good for any beginner, IMHO.

Many of us on this site have done Rippetoe or programs like it (Bill Starr, Stronglifts, etc). What has been missing from programs before Rippetoe is a lack of focus on strength. Once a person becomes strong, he will progress along a number of fronts all at once. Progress will be faster with this type of training than with any other. Like the OP of this thread, I wasted many years with 3x10 machine programs. It wasn’t until I started training the body as a whole with low reps that I got strong. I wish I had a known that in my 20s. I was almost 50 when I started training this way.

The fact is, that it doesn’t matter how old the trainee is or what sex. If you get him strong first, everything else is easier.

Stu[/quote]

ahh i c where you are coming from. i believe in periodization. i like to think that the body needs more repetition and experience before moving on to weights where you need extra mobility and stability.
Just like an accountant needs to do a million taxes before hes proficient in it.

i believe those 3 x 10’s probably refined you so that you would be able to perform 5x5. again, im not saying im right, just differences in methods i guess.

and regarding your last statement… it is quite ignorant. being stronger doesn’t necessarily make you more mobile. being stronger doesn’t always translate into a better clean. i beg to differ and say that technique and balance of strength, flexibility, etc will lead you to where you wanna get to.

23

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
stuward wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
only if you’ve tried it yourself and succeeded.
from what im reading, everyone seems to praise this program. i have yet to look at it. i only wonder how many of you actually used the program yourself? that sounds like an asshole challenge but i speak with sincerity.

its one thing reading it and pondering whether it fits well with the trends, but a theory is only good as a million dollars locked up in a mausoleum.
to me, 5x5 wouldnt be good for any beginner, IMHO.

Many of us on this site have done Rippetoe or programs like it (Bill Starr, Stronglifts, etc). What has been missing from programs before Rippetoe is a lack of focus on strength. Once a person becomes strong, he will progress along a number of fronts all at once. Progress will be faster with this type of training than with any other. Like the OP of this thread, I wasted many years with 3x10 machine programs. It wasn’t until I started training the body as a whole with low reps that I got strong. I wish I had a known that in my 20s. I was almost 50 when I started training this way.

The fact is, that it doesn’t matter how old the trainee is or what sex. If you get him strong first, everything else is easier.

Stu

ahh i c where you are coming from. i believe in periodization. i like to think that the body needs more repetition and experience before moving on to weights where you need extra mobility and stability.
Just like an accountant needs to do a million taxes before hes proficient in it.

i believe those 3 x 10’s probably refined you so that you would be able to perform 5x5. again, im not saying im right, just differences in methods i guess.

and regarding your last statement… it is quite ignorant. being stronger doesn’t necessarily make you more mobile. being stronger doesn’t always translate into a better clean. i beg to differ and say that technique and balance of strength, flexibility, etc will lead you to where you wanna get to. [/quote]

rippetoes will make a beginner strong
rippetoes has you doing the same lifts often

strength and technique practice check

I just think these things helped me most as a beginner.

24

Please state facts as to how it is ignorant. So far you appear to be the ignorant one here.

Who the fuck is talking about being mobile. This is Testosterone Nation, not Bosu Ball Nation.

Uh, so?

Technique does not make you stronger nor bigger. In fact, bad technique would make you stronger because you would not be using technique advantages.
Secondly, I am not sure being flexible will help with the OP’s beach muscles, nor will a good clean technique.

I want to like you ZeusNathan, but you keep digging yourself deeper.

25

[quote]yasser wrote:

and regarding your last statement… it is quite ignorant

Please state facts as to how it is ignorant. So far you appear to be the ignorant one here.

being stronger doesn’t necessarily make you more mobile.

Who the fuck is talking about being mobile. This is Testosterone Nation, not Bosu Ball Nation.

being stronger doesn’t always translate into a better clean

Uh, so?

i beg to differ and say that technique and balance of strength, flexibility, etc will lead you to where you wanna get to

Technique does not make you stronger nor bigger. In fact, bad technique would make you stronger because you would not be using technique advantages.
Secondly, I am not sure being flexible will help with the OP’s beach muscles, nor will a good clean technique.

I want to like you ZeusNathan, but you keep digging yourself deeper.[/quote]

oh boy. ill post a rebuttal only because i got some time in between classes.
first, i wanna say that i respect all of your opinions. the reason we all meet here is because we trust each others opinions to a certain extent. i come here to share and learn… and just because i dont give text book answers all the time should not aggravate you. i am doing nothing more than expressing my opinion. you dont have to accept it or read it at all. and really, you just jumped in to a middle of a discussion between stu and i, sorry but you werent included.

mobility is paramount in functional strength, and for you to mock me for it is really disappointing. what good is potential strength when you cant execute it? what good is a 300lbs bench when you cant wipe your ass properly?

and yes, technique most definitely makes you stronger.
my wrestling partner in high school was a state runner up in 103lbs. i wrestled 119lbs. this kid put up 95lbs on the bench for 5 reps. i on the other hand was pushing 135lbs. on the mat, he threw me around like i was a rag doll. not to say that i was a push over. i was district champ and region place winner.

technique is everything in sports. i guaruntee ronnie wouldnt be able to throw a ball harder than pedro martinez… or any major league pitcher for that matter. and it all comes down to technique. they’ve done thousands of repititions of the movement and have it down to a science. ronnie can bench 600lbs but ill bet a liver he cant throw past 80mph.

and i like digging holes. big ones.

26

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
yasser wrote:

and regarding your last statement… it is quite ignorant

Please state facts as to how it is ignorant. So far you appear to be the ignorant one here.

being stronger doesn’t necessarily make you more mobile.

Who the fuck is talking about being mobile. This is Testosterone Nation, not Bosu Ball Nation.

being stronger doesn’t always translate into a better clean

Uh, so?

i beg to differ and say that technique and balance of strength, flexibility, etc will lead you to where you wanna get to

Technique does not make you stronger nor bigger. In fact, bad technique would make you stronger because you would not be using technique advantages.
Secondly, I am not sure being flexible will help with the OP’s beach muscles, nor will a good clean technique.

I want to like you ZeusNathan, but you keep digging yourself deeper.

oh boy. ill post a rebuttal only because i got some time in between classes.
first, i wanna say that i respect all of your opinions. the reason we all meet here is because we trust each others opinions to a certain extent. i come here to share and learn… and just because i dont give text book answers all the time should not aggravate you. i am doing nothing more than expressing my opinion. you dont have to accept it or read it at all. and really, you just jumped in to a middle of a discussion between stu and i, sorry but you werent included.

mobility is paramount in functional strength, and for you to mock me for it is really disappointing. what good is potential strength when you cant execute it? what good is a 300lbs bench when you cant wipe your ass properly?

and yes, technique most definitely makes you stronger.
my wrestling partner in high school was a state runner up in 103lbs. i wrestled 119lbs. this kid put up 95lbs on the bench for 5 reps. i on the other hand was pushing 135lbs. on the mat, he threw me around like i was a rag doll. not to say that i was a push over. i was district champ and region place winner.

technique is everything in sports. i guaruntee ronnie wouldnt be able to throw a ball harder than pedro martinez… or any major league pitcher for that matter. and it all comes down to technique. they’ve done thousands of repititions of the movement and have it down to a science. ronnie can bench 600lbs but ill bet a liver he cant throw past 80mph.

and i like digging holes. big ones.

[/quote]

what are you talking about?

27

Cool. I am bored at work.

Technically you gave no answers, and your operating under the assumption that the OP wants to be mobile. He states he wants beach muscles.

I like to cut in line.

Aw shucks, no love.

Mobility is important, but not paramount. But that is just my opinion.
But primarily the poster wanted muscles, not mobility.

Agreed. My apologies.

Your average bodybuilder has a higher flexibility rating then normal people. You might want to boost that number cause 300 is rather common.

Disagree. Technique makes you stronger in that SPECIFIC activity, but not in general.

You can’t really compare weights in skill based sports, especially when the weights are so nominal.

So? I bet if an engine block fell on you, you would probably prefer Ronnie to be there.

Cool, helps me through my boring day.

28

I’m sorry I can’t get back to you very fast. I can’t access this site at work and I have teenagers at home.

This is a public forum and anyone that wants to comment can comment.

I will concede that there is benefit for raw beginners to do some sort of conditioning workout for a couple of months prior to getting into Rippetoe. I prefer bodyweight circuits like pushups, etc. Others prefer rotines like this: Bodybuilding Strength & Fitness Magazine – Iron Man Magazine
Yes it’s 10 reps. However, most people coming to this forum have some lifting under their belt.

Yes, learning technique and ensuring mobility is very important at this stage. I never said otherwise.

Building strength should be the next priority. It’s more important than hypertrophy which is usually what everyone is looking for and that’s the usual reason why people look at 3x10. This is my main point and the reason why I took offense to 10x3 recommendations. Moving to this type of training too early will not provide benefit because they don’t have the strength to adequately stimulate their muscles for growth. 3x10 will not provide the strength needed.

You brought up cleans. “being stronger doesn’t always translate into a better clean.” In fact, Rippetoe includes cleans in his program. For people who can’t learn the technique he substitutes bent rows. Cleans build power and strength and both are needed in sports and for general fitness. Technique is needed and although proper coaching is required in order to be competitive, the average lifter can teach himself to do power cleans from the internet and get athletic benefit.

Many athletes are able to combine size, strength and speed. Football linebackers, for example. Ronnie Coleman is a bodybuilder. His sport doesn’t require speed. Many that come to this site are hoping to become football players, martial artists, sprinters, or just become more fit than they are now. That’s what I meant when I said that everything is easier if you build from a base of strength.

The Rippetoe program will usually run it’s course in about 3 months. Then if you are interested in strength sports like Zephead, you can continue with a good start. If you want to be able to keep up with your kids, like TheDudeAbides or myself, now we can. Above all, now the trainees can focus on his sport and be rady for what comes next.

Stu

29

There is another factor here that needs addressing. You have said earlier that you have not read Rippetoe. That’s a problem.

Here’s the official site: www.startingstrength.com/

Here is a version online that you can read to get a sense of the program:

Here is Mark Rippetoe’s online forum: strengthmill.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=b8a02b966cb54b6ccc1d9d05449d10d0&f=36

Here is Madcow’s Bill Starr page so you can see the background that Mark Rippetoe built his program on: Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

Mark Rippetoe provides much support to the folks at Crossfit: www.crossfit.com/
with videos, seminars and articles like this:
crossfit.com/journal/2008/03/on_the_safety_and_efficacy_of.html

I give you all this so you can see how valuable a program this is. “Starting Strength” is now in it’s second edition. The book is a fantastic resource for coaches and trainees for technique in the basic lifts. There are 2 companion books, “Practical Programming”, and “Strong Enough” for people that want to take strength training to the next level.

Stu

30

it might seem like im taking a hypocritical stance on this discussion, but rippetoe has a good program. its short, simple, and straight to the point. i can see how it can lead into other good things.
however, i still believe that 3 x 12’s for these movements would be much more beneficial to beginners.

AND frankly, ive been using rippetoe’s program all along. No i never knew about it, I just share the same philosophy of keeping it simple .

(taken from bb.com)
A. The Main Exercises
*****1. The Squat
*****2. The Bench Press
*****3. The Deadlift
*****4. The Power Clean
*****5. The Press
*****6. The Row

substitute pull ups for bench press and that is my program in the flesh. i personally use 4 x 8 5 x 5 6 x 6 templates… which is basically rippetoe’s program.
How funny is that??!??!

31

But why? Not being argumentative, just want your reasons.

More Reps Equals:

  1. More lactic acid
  2. More Growth Hormone
  3. More Sarcomere Hypertrophy
  4. More Form breakdown
  5. Odds are your not moving challenging weights since your basically just fighting against muscle fatigue
32

higher reps for beginners
it instills better muscle memory than low reps
GH is good for you
Hypertrophy is good for you
less chance of injury
lactic acid burns FAT

more insightful reasoning

beginners dont go into a weight lifting regimen with perfectly balanced muscular system. trying to squat heavy with a weak synergist (hamstrings) can undoubtedly cause injury. its also challenging for a beginner to keep proper form throughout the set with a very heavy weight. with a muscle imbalance, heavy weights will only worsen the problem, whilst a high rep program with manageable weight can find those problems without much detrimental effects on the lifter; because it is easier to go slow and feel out your muscles in lift with moderate weight. would you do external rotations with 100lbs? would you do heavy squats with a person who has just torn his/her ACL? MCL? or would you slowely re introduce their body to familiar movements by incorporating high reps with high frequency for their muscles to LEARN the movements so it’ll be prepared for a heavier load later on…?

33

Sometimes I feel lactic acid is a false sense of accomplishment. I also think lactic acid burning fat during a workout has to be so nominal as to not even count. Unless that lactic acid fat burn has some long hours of carryover.
You can get GH from a low rep/heavy wt, shorten your rest time.
Hypertrophy is good, but MY preference is for functional muscle growth rather then the other way.
In my opinion, a muscular imbalance is an imbalance whether it occurs at rep 3 or rep 10. A total beginner will not be using heavy enough weights to even worry.
In a heavy weight scenario you would be able to see the form breakdown sooner, rather in a high rep fatigue scenario you might not even see it.

However, I would start a beginner on a 3x10 for a couple weeks to make the mind-muscle connection as you stated.

I don’t advocate heavy weights for every movement ie. front raises.
No, I would not start out a person with specific injury history to start heavy on the movements that would affect those areas. But most people with injuries I have seen OVERLY protect these parts.

34

Here’s my take on this; I’d say that Starting Strength is a great beginner program. Also, I have no idea at which point you are in your training career, so don’t feel offended by my advice if they’re too basic for you.

First, I would suggest that you try to start with the movements that you feel confortable doing and use replacement exercises for what you feel are not prepared for it.

When I first started, I used a modified write-up of starting strength like this one :

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
2x5-8 Dips

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Bent-over rows
2x5-8 Pull-ups

You could replace :
Squat = Please don’t replace this one
Bench Press = Dumbbells Bench Press
Deadlift = Maybe Dumbells Deadlift, I personally did Rack Pulls for a while to strengthen my lower back muscles
Dips = Close-grip Bench Press
Standing military press = Sitting Dumbbells overhead press
Bent-over rows = Cable machine rows, T-Bar Rowing
Pull-ups = Cable lat Pulldown

I might get called on this, but this program made me realize how important the basic compound movements are. I know it’s not exactly starting strength if you replace the movements, but as a beginner, you need to progressively get accustomed to the movements instead of just skipping them altogether.

Also, don’t add too much of your favorite exercises if they’re not recommended. You will probably add up some sets of bicep curls at the end of some of your workouts and I don’t think it’s really that wrong, unlike some people are saying.

About getting a better bench, it’s mostly about technique, then muscle strength as a beginner. You first need to read up on the powerlifting technique, or if you’re lucky, have someone strong teach you. Also, Dips (or close-grip bench press) build great tricep mass.

I suggest you try your own version of starting strength for while, then adjust for the real movements, then move on to a more advanced program once you feel confortable doing that.

I hope this will help, good luck.