Lifting for Swimming

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I do not recommend weight training for swimming. Strength is simply not a limiting factor in this activity.

A nationaly reknowned college swim coach that I lift with strongly disagrees.

How would an increased capacity for work, whether it is expressed in speed, endurance, and particularly a combination of both Not benefit an athelete?

I’ll send him a link and see if he’ll chime in.

[/quote]

“An increased capacity for work”

That phrase is vague and meaningless. Unless you’re referring to the mechanical definition of work, in which case I submit that the capacity to perform said work is not a limiting factor in the pool. The external resistance encountered during swimming is negligibile. Therefore, an increased capacity to overcome resistance is not likely to improve performance. And, and increased capacity for maximum force production would only be relevant to an event that demands maximum force production, which no swimming event does.

Not every sport in the world is a strength sport, and not every athlete needs to lift weights.

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:

Those who are discouraging weight training don’t have a clue. For a swimmer, there are three main things to worry about:
[/quote]

I would argue that those who zealously push weight training regardless of the nature of an athletic event don’t have a clue. I would further suggest that anyone who is so assured of his own correctness that he ridicules those who disagree with him is probably too arrogant to be truly knowledgeable.

A very prestigous university which has won several National Championships has a S&C coach which has all his/her swimmers perform olympic lifts, dry land work (i.e. sprints) and tons of core stability work. There must be something right going on if they have won 4 consecutive National titles. I wouldn’t say weight training is stupid for swimming. Results and National Championships don’t lie.

As for shld imbalances, a lot of swimmers have kyphosis (rounded shlds) which can lead to impingement syndrome. I would recommend stretching the anterior delts and pecs, strengthening the rhomboids, RTC, and serratus anterior to prevent shld injuries.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
buffalokilla wrote:

Those who are discouraging weight training don’t have a clue. For a swimmer, there are three main things to worry about:

I would argue that those who zealously push weight training regardless of the nature of an athletic event don’t have a clue. I would further suggest that anyone who is so assured of his own correctness that he ridicules those who disagree with him is probably too arrogant to be truly knowledgeable.
[/quote]

Excuse me? I think the clueless one here is you. As well as being a professional trainer, I was also a swimmer. I think I know what I am talking about. Lets read the post, other swimmers and professionals agree with our assessment. Lets ask Chad Waterbury or Eric Cressey. They would agree that strength training would make a difference in this regard as well. How about you help the original poster, instead of rile up those here actually trying to help.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I do not recommend weight training for swimming. Strength is simply not a limiting factor in this activity.

A nationaly reknowned college swim coach that I lift with strongly disagrees.

How would an increased capacity for work, whether it is expressed in speed, endurance, and particularly a combination of both Not benefit an athelete?

I’ll send him a link and see if he’ll chime in.

“An increased capacity for work”

That phrase is vague and meaningless. Unless you’re referring to the mechanical definition of work, in which case I submit that the capacity to perform said work is not a limiting factor in the pool. The external resistance encountered during swimming is negligibile. Therefore, an increased capacity to overcome resistance is not likely to improve performance. And, and increased capacity for maximum force production would only be relevant to an event that demands maximum force production, which no swimming event does.

Not every sport in the world is a strength sport, and not every athlete needs to lift weights. [/quote]

You can’t come up with an answer, can you?


Unless you’re referring to the mechanical definition of work, in which case I submit that the capacity to perform said work is not a limiting factor in the pool. The external resistance encountered during swimming is negligibile.


What other definition is there that would be pertinent to the topic?

Also, If the resistance were negligible, then why would there even be a need for locomotion?
You have to bear in mind that the body moves through the water by displacement. This requires force, and a good bit too. There are actualy formulae that are used to calculate this, but you would probably dismiss that along with the rest of the empiracle body of physics in an effort to save face.

At least you got one thing right. You are belligerent.

belligerent is right. Weightlifting is not that great for most swimmers, strength is just not that big a factor. I am not saying weight training is pointless for swimming BUT I do think that becoming a better swimmer is going to yield FAR greater gains than building strength.

In the world?s best freestylists, 9% of their energy goes into forward movement (the rest is used to overcome the various forms of drag). Compare this to running on land where 80% goes into forward movement. Anything you can do to reduce drag will have a massive effect on your speed.

Here in Aus our Olympic teams lift. In fact Geoff Huegill (50m butterfly expert) joked that he seems to spend more time in the weight room than in the pool. Why? because the man has already perfected his technique. He is actually considered to be the ‘Best’ butterfly practitioner in the world, not just because he is the fastest, but because he obtains the highest % of forward movement.

One of the best ways to improve in freestyle is not to try and improve your time directly but instead to try to reduce the number of strokes it takes to finish your event. A cool test our coach got us to do on swimming camp once was whilst we were watching the 100m men?s freestyle on T.V (I think it was Sydney 2000 Olympics) we each picked a lane and counted the number of strokes they took. The first 5 to finish were in perfect order, where the fewest strokes came first, second fewest came second ect.

I know this post is long and rambling. I enjoy both weightlifting AND swimming but if I ever wished to get back into competition the first thing I would do is get a great coach and devote as much time as i could. Why dedicate time to lift weights which could be used to improve technique? If there were times where I couldn’t swim but I could lift (and recover), then sure. But if it is a case of one or the other, weightlifting looses.

It’s simple, better form + less drag= faster swimmer.

When I swam we did dry land work but only sprints and some light exercise and stretching. I do not think it’s necessary to lift to be a stronger swimmer, if he want’s to then I say go for it. But the less mass you are dragging through the water the faster you are gonna be.

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
Excuse me? I think the clueless one here is you. As well as being a professional trainer, I was also a swimmer. I think I know what I am talking about. Lets read the post, other swimmers and professionals agree with our assessment. Lets ask Chad Waterbury or Eric Cressey. They would agree that strength training would make a difference in this regard as well.
[/quote]

With no disrespect intended to said persons, the fact that Eric Cressey and Chad Waterbury may agree with you (a position you have assumed for them without even asking) does not make you correct. The fact that you swim also does not make you correct. The fact that some swimmers believe in weight training also does not make you correct. Your argument either holds up on it’s own or not, and it doesn’t matter who agrees with you.

My advice to the original poster is not to worry about weight training. I gave this advice in my first post without any reference to anyone else who was providing advice, and several people then attacked me, evidently because they consider it blasphemous to suggest that not every athlete on the face of the earth needs to lift weights.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
What other definition is there that would be pertinent to the topic?
[/quote]

People tend to use “work” in an ambiguous general sense in relation to physical activity. In the context of what you wrote it appeared that you were doing this.

The presence of resistance has nothing to do with the need for locamotion.

[quote]
You have to bear in mind that the body moves through the water by displacement.[/quote]

This isn’t significant. You may as well say “the body moves through the water by moving”. OK, so what?

Speaking in physics terms, displacement does not require force- acceleration does.

But, relating displacement specifically to locamotion, clearly all forms of movement require force. That’s not interesting. The question is whether imcreasing the capacity to produce force will affect an improvement in performance, which is NOT necessarily true. If strength is not a limiting factor in the first place, then increasing strength will not improve performance. I submit that strength is not a limiting factor in most swimming events, if any.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that swimmers can’t derive any benefit at all from weight training, and there may be other mechanisms by which weight training improves swimming performance. However, I doubt that increasing strength translates into an improved capacity for propulsion in the water.

Now you’re just mouthing off, but I assure you that I am well acquainted with physics formulae.

It seems that those arguing against using weight training are assuming that we’re recommending some 4 times per week and an hour and a half per session type of application. Am I correct here? Belligerent, are you saying that weight training is useless or that training primarily for maximal strength is worthless? There’s a big difference there, and the latter is irrelevent to the conversation.

What I suggested would take half an hour three times per week, tops, and would in no way detract from technique or endurance work. It would also keep the athlete healthy and provide stronger muscles with which to swim. What’s the problem?

-Dan

Baseball players shouldn’t lift weights because unless they have perfect technique they’re not going to hit the ball anyway. They should raise their average before worrying about how strong they are.

DD

PS: Um, I hope no one took that seriously.

The issue comes down to power generated through the stroke vs. the amount of resistance you have. Obviously anaerobic and aerobic capacity are hugely important also. (as is technique)…

So, are basic lifts good? Well, without talking rep ranges, all of this discussion is basically performance training retarded. Does the prescription cause added muscle mass which will cause drag (resistance) in the water? If so, you better be producing quite a bit of power with this new muscle, or you are getting slower.

Now, if the rep ranges vary from pure strength work to strength endurance work, then you may be on a very good track.

Shoulder prehab should basically done almost every day to offset the internal rotation work of the sport, unless you regularly backstroke.

Core work is hugely important to this sport, and this has yet to be discussed…no?

Also, the fact that in 95% of the HS and clubs teams around here, all swimmers do the same workout, whether their event in anaerobically based, or aerobically based would lead me to believe that the sport has a LOOOONNNNGGG way to go at the grassroots level.

This all being said, I am going to go have my sprinters do a 5000m workout, and since their technique isn’t perfect we are not going to lift weights from now on and work on form…

Ha!

J

Weight lifting may not be required for swimming, but who has ever been hurt by being stronger in any sport? Even Lance Armstrong, who does such a purely endurance sport, lifts weights. If your training economy allows for it, lift.

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Also, the fact that in 95% of the HS and clubs teams around here, all swimmers do the same workout, whether their event in anaerobically based, or aerobically based would lead me to believe that the sport has a LOOOONNNNGGG way to go at the grassroots level.
J[/quote]

Ahh how you know my pain. When i was swimming for school I had to do the same middle distance crap that everyone else did dispite the fact that I kicked arse at 50m free and sucked at everything else. I used to argue with my coach about it. When I made the state team it was like a dream come true. My training was almost over by the time the distance boys were done warming up!

Back to the debate at hand. If your Bro have the time, recovery and enjoys it by all means lift but I don’t see this having any impact on his swimming.

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
It seems that those arguing against using weight training are assuming that we’re recommending some 4 times per week and an hour and a half per session type of application. Am I correct here? Belligerent, are you saying that weight training is useless or that training primarily for maximal strength is worthless? There’s a big difference there, and the latter is irrelevent to the conversation.

What I suggested would take half an hour three times per week, tops, and would in no way detract from technique or endurance work. It would also keep the athlete healthy and provide stronger muscles with which to swim. What’s the problem?

-Dan [/quote]

This is what I agree with. Swimming is a sport where the correct balance between technique and strength is a very difficult thing to achieve.

Those who are saying no weight training is needed and swimming is all about technique have a very strong point. Swimming is MOSTLY about reducing the drag and making yourself as streamlined as possible. The poster who wrote about trying to reduce the number of strokes per lap is spot on, this is exactly what you need to do, because swimming is mostly endurance-based and the more efficient you become the less likely you are to tire out on the last lap.

Also, water is a funny medium, when you push against it all it does is move AWAY from you and doesn’t really provide much resistance against which a reaction force is produced to propel you along, very different to what happens when you are running on solid ground! The key to swimming is to get your hand to “grip” the water and then use this as an anchor point over which you pull your body. In freestyle this is often referred to as “reaching over a barrel”, an image which can help the swimmer understand that they don’t just rip their arm back through the water but instead pull their body over their arm, using the powerful back muscles as the “engine”, rather than the smaller shoulder and arm muscles.

Now the above is all about correct technique. The trouble is that holding your body in a perfectly streamlined position that is not going to flop around in the water requires a tremendous amount of core strength. And if your technique is going to allow you to use your larger back muscles, don’t you want these muscles to be stronger? It is the swimmer with the strength advantage who will win over his competitors with equal technique efficiency, this is where strength training comes in.

Note that I said “strengh training”. We don’t want our swimmers to bulk up to much, it destroys the streamline effect, think of a wide barge compared to a thin speedboat. So “relative strength” is the key.

I think using some O-lifts would be the best solution. For example Dan John often tells the story that some of his athletes or friends only use “The Exercise”, or a power snatch/overhead squat combo. This would give you great flexibility, speed, power and core stability. Add in lots of external rotation and lats/lower back work and that’s all you would need to keep a swimmer in great shape.

Cheers,

Ben

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
olympic lifts are totally out of place as swimming is done by the flexors of the body[/quote]

…like the hip flexors?

Think about that statement you made in regards to the lower body for a minute.

-Dan

This is a interesting subject. A number of posters have claimed strength training is unsuitable for swimmers. Whilst I respect their opinions, I don’t really think this is true. One of the most important things in sport, is an athletes ability to receive an exert force. If we think of actions such as jumping, sprinting etc. we know this to be true. Surely the same is true of swimming? If two athletes have the identical technique but one can exert more force against the water, wouldn?t he swim faster?

Only a few years ago many believed lifting weights would make athletes slower. Look at the huge difference it makes today. Certainly spend lots of time in the pool, and work hard on improve form/technique, however do not neglect the massive opportunity for improvement that strength training offers.

As is obvious from the varied replies to this topic, developing a strength program for swimming is no easy task.

I believe one of the major factors we must consider when talking about this issue, is that swimming is one of the few sports performed with no ground contact (dive out of blocks the exception). Nearly all sports require an athlete to generate force by pushing into the ground. However this is not possible when floating in the water.

As mentioned by a number of other posters training the ‘core’ is very important. Think about implementing swiss ball exercises into the workout. Exercises such as log rolls, pikes, skiers and other variations are great. The good thing about these exercises is that they require the athlete to move the body (e.g. legs) whilst maintaining a stable spine (a skill I would guess important to swimming success). These exercises require movement and control of all the body in an unstable environment, just like in the water.

Whilst the above exercises are great and will certainly aid swimming performance be sure not to neglect the traditional compound lifts such as squats, deadlifts, RDLs etc… We all know the merits of training with such lifts and whilst the are ground based and swimming is not, they are beneficial in their ability to activate a great number of muscle fibres, activate the release of hormones, train stabilizers etc. The body?s pulling muscles are obviously very important and should therefore be trained. Try chins are their many variations as they require the athlete to move their own body weight much the same as swimming.

It has also been suggested that Olympics lifts have no place in a swimmers program, that they too offer no benefits. Again I would disagree with this point. Coming from a back ground outside of swimming, I believe these lifts to be great at improving an athletes explosiveness and of training the all important triple extension.

Obviously in swimming this is less important as for the large part the legs, hips and ankles remain extended. However, what about when diving off the blocks, or when pushing off when turning? Wouldn?t the ability to push yourself out further be helpful? Think also about the fast twitch fibres incorporated when using these lifts.

I think a lot of the problem when swimmers (or any athletes for that matter) incorporate strength training into their training, is that they try to train either like power lifting, weightlifter, or bodybuilding. These groups utilise some brilliant means of training. However you would be much better of if you trained like a swimmer. Take the best bits of each and ask yourself the question: will this exercise help my swimming?

It is not possible to write a program in such a reply, as there are some many things to take into consideration. My best advise for you is to find as much info from research articles etc to put you in the best position to make good choices. I hope some of this helps.

All the best. Pete.

I realize that this is an old thread but, for anyone that might care, I have some input. My thoughts on swimming is that typical swimming workouts consist of high volume at speeds well below race pace. From what I’ve read above, the thought on this is that it improves technique. Wouldn’t it make sense that high volume, slow swims would tire the swimmer, thus deteriorating form while also training the wrong energy systems?

Speaking entirely for sprint swimmers, I think that volume should be cut tremendously and more emphasis placed on maximum effort swims. I don’t think that most swimmers spend enough time developing the power and CNS capacity to even swim at maximum speed.

Here’s what I would suggest as a brief phase to teach your body to swim at max speed. This is specifically for somebody focusing on 50 / 100 butterfly and freestyle, but still wanting to maintain the other strokes.

Day 1- Butterfly Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 2- Special Endurance 1
4 X 25 Seconds @ 100% w/ 4 minutes rest (Butterfly)
2 X 25 Seconds @ 100% w/ 4 minutes rest (Freestyle)

Day 3- Freestyle Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 4- Medley Tempo
4 X 200 IM @ 80% w/ 3 minutes rest

Day 5- Butterfly Speed Endurance
6 X 50 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 6- Rest

Day 7- Freestyle Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 8- Special Endurance 2
3 X 50 seconds @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest (Freestyle)
1 X 50 seconds @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest (Butterfly)

Day 9- Butterfly Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 10- Medley Tempo
4 X 200 IM @ 80% w/ 3 minutes rest

Day 11- Freestyle Speed Endurance
6 X 50 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 12- Rest

Day 13- Butterfly Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 14- Special Endurance 2
3 X 50 seconds @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest (Butterfly)
1 X 50 seconds @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest (Freestyle)

Day 15- Freestyle Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 16- Medley Tempo
4 X 200 IM @ 80% w/ 3 minutes rest

Day 17- Butterfly Speed Endurance
6 X 50 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 18- Rest

Day 19- Freestyle Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 20- Spedial Endurance 1
4 X 25 Seconds @ 100% w/ 4 minutes rest (Freestyle)
2 X 25 Seconds @ 100% w/ 4 minutes rest (Butterfly)

Day 21- Butterfly Speed
12 X 25 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 22- Medley Tempo
4 X 200 IM @ 100% w/ 3 minutes rest

Day 23- Freestyle Speed Endurance
6 X 50 @ 100% w/ 5 minutes rest

Day 24- Rest

As you see, almost every swim is at maximum effort, and complete to near complete recovery is given, allowing ATP and creatine stores to replenish. Here would be the dryland workouts to go along with it:

Day 1-
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 60%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 2 X 3 @ 55%
Ceiling Throws- 2 X 8

Day 2-
Rest

Day 3-
Push-Press- 1 X 2 @ 80%
Push-Throw- 1 X 4
Push-Press- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Push-Throw- 2 X 4
Push-Press- 1 X 3 @ 70%
Push-Throw- 1 X 2

Day 4-
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 80%
Clean- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 70%
Front Squat Throw- 2 X 4
Lumberjacks- 1 X 8 (each side)

Day 5-
Hang Pulls- 3 X 5 @ 70%
Hang Snatch- 1 X 3 @ 80%
Snatch Throws- 1 X 4
Hang Snatch- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Snatch Throws- 2 X 4

Day 6-
Rest

Day 7-
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 70%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 60%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 2 X 3 @ 55%
Ceiling Throws- 2 X 4

Day 8-
Rest

Day 9-
Push-Press- 1 X 2 @ 85%
Push-Throw- 1 X 4
Push-Press- 2 X 3 @ 80%
Push-Throw- 2 X 4
Push-Press- 1 X 3 @ 75%
Push-Throw- 1 X 2

Day 10-
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 80%
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 85%
Clean- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Front Squat Throw- 2 X 4
Lumberjacks- 1 X 8 (each side)

Day 11-
Hang Pulls- 3 X 5 @ 70%
Hang Snatch- 1 X 3 @ 80%
Snatch Throws- 1 X 4
Hang Snatch- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Snatch Throws- 2 X 4

Day 12-
Rest

Day 13-
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 60%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 65%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 2 X 3 @ 55%
Ceiling Throws- 2 X 4

Day 14-
Rest

Day 15-
Push-Press- 2 X 1 @ 90%
Push-Throw- 2 X 2
Push-Press- 1 X 2 @ 85%
Push-Throw- 1 X 4
Push-Press- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Push-Throw- 2 X 2

Day 16-
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 85%
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 90%
Clean- 2 X 3 @ 80%
Front Squat Throw- 2 X 4
Lumberjacks- 1 X 8 (each side)

Day 17-
Hang Pulls- 3 X 5 @ 70%
Hang Snatch- 1 X 3 @ 85%
Snatch Throws- 1 X 4
Hang Snatch- 2 X 3 @ 75%
Snatch Throws- 2 X 4

Day 18-
Rest

Day 19-
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 3 @ 60%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 6
Speed Bench Press- 1 X 2 @ 75%
Ceiling Throws- 1 X 2
Speed Bench Press- 2 X 3 @ 55%
Ceiling Throws- 2 X 4

Day 20- Rest

Day 21-
Push-Press- 2 X 1 @ 95%
Push-Throw- 2 X 2
Push-Press- 1 X 2 @ 90%
Push-Throw- 1 X 4
Push-Press- 2 X 3 @ 80%
Push-Throw- 2 X 2

Day 22-
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 85%
Clean- 1 X 3 @ 90%
Clean- 2 X 3 @ 80%
Front Squat Throw- 2 X 4
Lumberjacks- 1 X 8 (each side)

Day 23-
Hang Pulls- 3 X 4 @ 75%
Hang Snatch- 1 X 2 @ 90%
Snatch Throws- 1 X 2
Hang Snatch- 2 X 3 @ 80%
Snatch Throws- 2 X 4

Day 24-
Rest

At first these workouts might seem silly for a swimmer, but remember this is a brief phase designed to enhance the swimmer’s CNS capacity and learn to move at full speed. After this phase I would change the workouts to focus more on things such as pull-ups, chin-ups, rows, and lat pulls. Some cooldown and remedial work should also be used, especially if the swimmer has shoulder problems:

Butterfly Cooldown-
1 X 200 @ 50% (Breaststroke)

Freestyle Cooldown-
1 X 200 @ 50% (Backstroke)

Dryland Remedial-
Lying External Rotations- 3 X 10
Lying Internal Rotations- 3 X 10
Butterfly Rotations- 3 X 10
Lying Dumbbell Rows- 3 X 10
Lying Lateral Raise- 3 X 10

I expect to be highly criticized for this post, but I believe that spending just one month from your current training to do this (preferably in the off-season) would do wonders for your times.

Beau

I swam for many years and never lifted wights then, so I don’t know the benefit it would have had, but I can say that now, “I can just walk past the dip station, and my triceps grow” - same goes for lat pulls, if that helps at all.

belligerent wrote:
I do not recommend weight training for swimming. Strength is simply not a limiting factor in this activity.

this guy has no experience with serious competitive swimming, ignore him