T Nation

Lifetime Drug Free Human Strength Limits


#1

I am a 15 year old beginner Looking to set some lifetime lifting goals and I was wondering what the highest lifetime drug free Deadlift , Squat, and bench press is. and Unless your positive these people never took any thing please do not come back with powerlifting watch records saying some crazy number that just was some one who had know how to dodge the drug tests.


#2

Well, by that measure, no one will be able to answer your question… even tested events are often pretty easy to get around, depending on the fed. So unless someone here PERSONALLY knows an all-time WR holder and can vouch for every second of that person’s day for the entirety their athletic career, there is no way you’ll get an answer. Why don’t you just start off with realistic, attainable drug-free goals? Like a 400 lb. squat and DL and a 300 lb. bench?

Almost any weight class could attain these numbers after a few years of hard work, drug free. With the right programming, depending on your size, you might be able to make these numbers in a couple years as it is.


#3

[quote]DonDooley wrote:
Well, by that measure, no one will be able to answer your question… even tested events are often pretty easy to get around, depending on the fed. So unless someone here PERSONALLY knows an all-time WR holder and can vouch for every second of that person’s day for the entirety their athletic career, there is no way you’ll get an answer. Why don’t you just start off with realistic, attainable drug-free goals? Like a 400 lb. squat and DL and a 300 lb. bench?

Almost any weight class could attain these numbers after a few years of hard work, drug free. With the right programming, depending on your size, you might be able to make these numbers in a couple years as it is.[/quote]

last time I tested my 1 rep maxes I had 370lb deadlift a 345lb squat and 190lb bench press so for 6 month goals I was thinking a 505lb dl and a 500lb squat and a 275lb bench please tell me what you think of these goals


#4

These threads are always so ridiculous. No one knows the human bodies full potential. Why don’t you just focus on lifting and absorbing positive information instead of worrying about these non-natty lifters that work 10x harder than you do (but don’t worry, Stan Efferdings 900+ squat is all the juice, natty he probably only hits like 135 for a few reps).


#5

[quote]Curls4Girls wrote:
These threads are always so ridiculous. No one knows the human bodies full potential. Why don’t you just focus on lifting and absorbing positive information instead of worrying about these non-natty lifters that work 10x harder than you do (but don’t worry, Stan Efferdings 900+ squat is all the juice, natty he probably only hits like 135 for a few reps). [/quote]
First off. I would like to say I completely agree with you the human body has no limits I hate the word limits it is for pussies. I actually didn’t mean to use it, my ultimate goal is to deadlift 900lb + natty and I was wondering if its been done before


#6

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:
…I completely agree with you the human body has no limits…[/quote]

No.


#7

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:
First off. I would like to say I completely agree with you the human body has no limits I hate the word limits it is for pussies. I actually didn’t mean to use it, my ultimate goal is to deadlift 900lb + natty and I was wondering if its been done before [/quote]

Ok, your 15 yo enthusiasm is intoxicating,and humans can do some pretty amazing stuff; however I can assure you that the human body does indeed have limits. Those limits are highly individual. Your job is to see where yours is. Set goals and train to reach them. Then set new goals. wash, rinse, repeat.


#8

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:

[quote]DonDooley wrote:
Well, by that measure, no one will be able to answer your question… even tested events are often pretty easy to get around, depending on the fed. So unless someone here PERSONALLY knows an all-time WR holder and can vouch for every second of that person’s day for the entirety their athletic career, there is no way you’ll get an answer. Why don’t you just start off with realistic, attainable drug-free goals? Like a 400 lb. squat and DL and a 300 lb. bench?

Almost any weight class could attain these numbers after a few years of hard work, drug free. With the right programming, depending on your size, you might be able to make these numbers in a couple years as it is.[/quote]

last time I tested my 1 rep maxes I had 370lb deadlift a 345lb squat and 190lb bench press so for 6 month goals I was thinking a 505lb dl and a 500lb squat and a 275lb bench please tell me what you think of these goals [/quote]

You will probably need more time than six months to hit those numbers. But they are good goals.


#9

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:

[quote]DonDooley wrote:
Well, by that measure, no one will be able to answer your question… even tested events are often pretty easy to get around, depending on the fed. So unless someone here PERSONALLY knows an all-time WR holder and can vouch for every second of that person’s day for the entirety their athletic career, there is no way you’ll get an answer. Why don’t you just start off with realistic, attainable drug-free goals? Like a 400 lb. squat and DL and a 300 lb. bench?

Almost any weight class could attain these numbers after a few years of hard work, drug free. With the right programming, depending on your size, you might be able to make these numbers in a couple years as it is.[/quote]

last time I tested my 1 rep maxes I had 370lb deadlift a 345lb squat and 190lb bench press so for 6 month goals I was thinking a 505lb dl and a 500lb squat and a 275lb bench please tell me what you think of these goals [/quote]

Those are some very ambitious goals. Maybe if you’re a real freak you might hit those numbers (depending on your current size and lifting experience too), I cannot say what’s possible or impossible for someone with very gifted genetics. If you’re not a total giant/genetic freak, those are rather lofty goals. I’m not going to be one to say you can’t do it, but increasing your squat 155lbs in 6mo is not very common outside of your newb gains period. As your squat is 345lbs, I’d say you’re probably done with newb gains.

Everybody has a tendency to say, “if everything goes ideally and my gains in x keep coming at the same rate, I should be able to lift y in z amount of time.” But the problem is, training never progresses ideally. It’s all peaks and valleys. Goals are still good things to have, though. They give you motivation. If you’re going to set lofty goals, just don’t be too upset if you don’t reach them. Instead, be proud of the gains you worked hard for.


#10

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:

[quote]DonDooley wrote:
Well, by that measure, no one will be able to answer your question… even tested events are often pretty easy to get around, depending on the fed. So unless someone here PERSONALLY knows an all-time WR holder and can vouch for every second of that person’s day for the entirety their athletic career, there is no way you’ll get an answer. Why don’t you just start off with realistic, attainable drug-free goals? Like a 400 lb. squat and DL and a 300 lb. bench?

Almost any weight class could attain these numbers after a few years of hard work, drug free. With the right programming, depending on your size, you might be able to make these numbers in a couple years as it is.[/quote]

last time I tested my 1 rep maxes I had 370lb deadlift a 345lb squat and 190lb bench press so for 6 month goals I was thinking a 505lb dl and a 500lb squat and a 275lb bench please tell me what you think of these goals [/quote]

Those are some very ambitious goals. Maybe if you’re a real freak you might hit those numbers (depending on your current size and lifting experience too), I cannot say what’s possible or impossible for someone with very gifted genetics. If you’re not a total giant/genetic freak, those are rather lofty goals. I’m not going to be one to say you can’t do it, but increasing your squat 155lbs in 6mo is not very common outside of your newb gains period. As your squat is 345lbs, I’d say you’re probably done with newb gains.

Everybody has a tendency to say, “if everything goes ideally and my gains in x keep coming at the same rate, I should be able to lift y in z amount of time.” But the problem is, training never progresses ideally. It’s all peaks and valleys. Goals are still good things to have, though. They give you motivation. If you’re going to set lofty goals, just don’t be too upset if you don’t reach them. Instead, be proud of the gains you worked hard for.[/quote]
Tell those valleys to use some lube next time they fuck me…they hurt


#11

[quote]Beast5452 wrote:
last time I tested my 1 rep maxes I had 370lb deadlift a 345lb squat and 190lb bench press so for 6 month goals I was thinking a 505lb dl and a 500lb squat and a 275lb bench please tell me what you think of these goals [/quote]
No one knows the highest truly natty powerlifts. No one. You will never find this information, so my advice would be to stop worrying about it. Just know that, in general, you can get extremely strong without drugs. It will take you a very long time though.

Your goals listed above are absurd. You will not squat and deadlift 500lbs in six months. You might not even do it in a year or even in two years. You just have to keep at it.


#12

There’s no way to know if anyones 100% clean or not, but I’ve always used Mike Ohearn as a possible example for my kids. If you take an hour and do some research, he’s been competing for 20+ years in both BBing, and PLing. He set teenage PLing records, and his lifting has progressed pretty linier for 20yrs. After he became an adult he has only ever competed in tested events, both Pling, and BBing.

The fact that you can research his Pling numbers for 20yrs, plus look at photo shoots for 20yrs, there’s never been a huge jump, and his build, all though big, still seems atainable. his arms and shoulders, don’t have the ridiculous size of Pro BBer’s. There is absolutly no way to know for sure, but I have a good feeling about this guy. The fact that he’s maintained for 20+ years, both build, and pondages, also lends to his natural status. most juicers don’t maintain for 20yrs. They come and go, Also his stance, isn’t against juicers, he says he trains with them and uses them for motivation. Listen to his radio interview at “Supertraining. TV” and his own web sight.

Now having said all that he deads around 700lbs, squats high 600s, and benches around 500 @ a body weight of around 230 lean, and 270 (fat) when he’s PLing. He’s tall, mabey 6"4’ or somthing. Wheather he’s used or not, I believe he’s on the far end of what could be acomplished naturaly. keep in mind 20+ years of steady hard heavy training. You can’t train for 6mths and call bullshit on this. his father was a competative weight lifter, and i think his mom was a medal holding athlete as well. genitics matter as well

Layne Norton as well claims (and I believe) to be natural. he moves some big weights as well, at a smaller body weight, but he also has been training for alot of years. I think a natural trainer could hit almost as much as a juicer. I just think it will take 5 times as long. Getting strong is a lifelong endevor. Goodluck


#13

If your a big fan of math there is a fairly simple statistical method to analyze human potential. you would have to do a lot of leg work searching for numbers and then trying to make a call if its really drug free or not. But to save you some time it will basically say that over time the ceiling for max weight increases more and more slowly but according to the math there is no limit.

Also don’t try to advance to fast, that is when most people get hurt.


#14

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
The fact that he’s maintained for 20+ years, both build, and pondages, also lends to his natural status. most juicers don’t maintain for 20yrs. They come and go,[/quote]

Then of course there’s Louie Simmons, who first totaled elite in 1973 and was still putting up elite totals in 2010 (at the time, PLW had him 39th in the world and 18th best deadlift in the 220s). He’s never come off the juice.

That being said, I agree with just about the rest of the indicators you mentioned.


#15

2.5x BW squat
2xBW bench
3xBW deadlift


#16

I drink the PED Caffeine I’m out…


#17

I wasn’t trying to name anyone and say they’re natural for sure, there’s no way to know, but i believe both those guys are on the outer limits of whats acheivable naturaly, both these guys have great genitics, are driven, and have put over a decade of grueling workouts behind them. I hate when kids train hard for 6mths, and say I’ll never get strong without steroids, and then start pointing out evryopne stronger then them, saying they’re all on juice. depending on your height, and build, picking one of these two, and spending a decade training hard and natural, would atleast give you some goals, at the outer limits of what you might achieve. 2cents


#18

Mike O’Hearn is on that celltech dude.

Based on USAPL records, for a 200 pound dude it looks like a 500 lb. bench, 600 lb. squat, and a 6-700 lb. deadlift are in the upper realm of possibly natty competitors. But it would be really, really difficult to get to those numbers without great genetics and drive.

What I’m saying is, you’re 15. You’ve got 20 years to hit your peak. Use every last second.


#19

O’Hearn claims a higher BW and lower BF% than Arnold at his peak and Arnold juiced.

Not complicated…


#20

This is the thing I’ve noticed, coaching kids for 20yrs. The ones that believed they would squat a 700lb, truely believed this and worked hard at it, not listening to doubters, always ended up squatting 500lbs.

The kids that believed everyone was on juice, that no one could possibly squat 700 natty, stalled arround 250lbs, and never got much past that, giving excuses for this–training natural - poor genitics. The point is I’ve had a dozen or so kids squat 500lbs over the years naturaly, and they were the ones that didn’t put limits on them selves. So believe what you want, but if you don’t shoot for the stars, you’ll never make it to the clouds !