Libertarians

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Gael wrote:
orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

[/quote]

There is way to much in there.

You mix pollution, a problem of externalities, with things you do not like, like trashy restaurants and bubbles produced by cheap monopolized fiat money, like the housing bubble.

Thew first one is a problem, calling for government intervention , the second one your private problem, calling for tolerance on your part and the third one is not caused by a free market, but the lack of it.

22

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
pookie wrote:
When does the government force you to use a service?

Don’t you have government health care? What are your options versus government health care in Canada?

[/quote]

I can go to a private clinic and pay for whatever services I use there.

23

[quote]Gael wrote:
You: Without gov’t, business only plays nice
Me: Counterexample
You: But it’s your fault.[/quote]

Not nice, non-violent. Important difference.

The government however by it sheer design has to resort to violence.

Plus, they are also not very nice.

24

[quote]orion wrote:
There is way to much in there.

You mix pollution, a problem of externalities, with things you do not like, like trashy restaurants and bubbles produced by cheap monopolized fiat money, like the housing bubble.

Thew first one is a problem, calling for government intervention , the second one your private problem, calling for tolerance on your part and the third one is not caused by a free market, but the lack of it.

[/quote]

Gael. Read it again. Not kidding. I might just quote it AGAIN so you have to read it a third time.

Young people who are so passionate about being anti-capitalist will do just about anything but take a damn economics course.

25

http://zompist.com/libertos.html

26

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

And so on.

[/quote]

Corporations have more influence than the people

27

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Corporations have more influence than the people
[/quote]

True. You know how to erase their influence?

28

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

And so on.

Corporations have more influence than the people

[/quote]

Which people?

29

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Corporations have more influence than the people

[/quote]

Guess who works for, buys from, and runs the “corporations”?

The people.

Doesn’t necessarily mean “they” should have so much influence, but seriously, think a little. “They” aren’t pure evil.

30

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Corporations have more influence than the people

Guess who works for, buys from, and runs the “corporations”?

The people.

Doesn’t necessarily mean “they” should have so much influence, but seriously, think a little. “They” aren’t pure evil.[/quote]

“They” are the ones that retirement funds are invested in, that pension plans invest in, that life insurance companies invest in, etc.

If there is no “they”, there is no “us”. At least no older “us’s”.

31

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
orion wrote:
There is way to much in there.

You mix pollution, a problem of externalities, with things you do not like, like trashy restaurants and bubbles produced by cheap monopolized fiat money, like the housing bubble.

Thew first one is a problem, calling for government intervention , the second one your private problem, calling for tolerance on your part and the third one is not caused by a free market, but the lack of it.

Gael. Read it again. Not kidding. I might just quote it AGAIN so you have to read it a third time.

Young people who are so passionate about being anti-capitalist will do just about anything but take a damn economics course.[/quote]

Twice you have attacked me personally but failed to add substance to the discussion, both times missing my point. The point of my post which Orion responded to was that one person’s economic decisions/mistakes affects far more than just themselves. This is a point that libertarians do not like to concede. I did not make any point beyond that. Do not presume to label me as anti-capitalist.

Ideally, I would support a freer market, but the “free market” that we have is a mirage. The only true capitalism is small businesses. They are the ones that are free to go bankrupt; big business is bailed out by the government. The system has become so plagued by corporate crime, fraud, and abuse that it’s a stretch to even call it capitalism.

32

[quote]orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

There is way to much in there.

You mix pollution, a problem of externalities, with things you do not like, like trashy restaurants and bubbles produced by cheap monopolized fiat money, like the housing bubble.

Thew first one is a problem, calling for government intervention , the second one your private problem, calling for tolerance on your part and the third one is not caused by a free market, but the lack of it.

[/quote]

They are all externalities. There is no monetary value that can be placed on the adverse impact of some of them, but we do not live in the one dimensional world that libertarians believe we live in. And a few posts back you in effect claimed that externalities do not exist.

33

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Corporations have more influence than the people

Guess who works for, buys from, and runs the “corporations”?

The people.

Doesn’t necessarily mean “they” should have so much influence, but seriously, think a little. “They” aren’t pure evil.[/quote]

Why do you put “they” in quotation marks? That’s your wording, not somebody else’s. It is only your side that is using terms like “evil” when describing corporations. That is your second straw man in this thread.

34

[quote]Gael wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
orion wrote:

Ideally, I would support a freer market, but the “free market” that we have is a mirage. The only true capitalism is small businesses. They are the ones that are free to go bankrupt; big business is bailed out by the government. The system has become so plagued by corporate crime, fraud, and abuse that it’s a stretch to even call it capitalism.[/quote]

True.

So don´t call it capitalism.

35

[quote]Gael wrote:
They are all externalities. There is no monetary value that can be placed on the adverse impact of some of them, but we do not live in the one dimensional world that libertarians believe we live in. And a few posts back you in effect claimed that externalities do not exist.

[/quote]

I never claimed that externalities do not exist. That sounds like Lifticusmaximus and I disagree.

Libertarians also do not claim that the choices other people make do not affect you. We claim that you have no right to initiate violence and affect people that way. Big difference.

So you do not like what you think Libertarians believe in and what you think capitalism is responsible for ,except that it is not really capitalism and Libertarians do not really think that way?

36

[quote]Gael wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Corporations have more influence than the people

Guess who works for, buys from, and runs the “corporations”?

The people.

Doesn’t necessarily mean “they” should have so much influence, but seriously, think a little. “They” aren’t pure evil.

Why do you put “they” in quotation marks? That’s your wording, not somebody else’s. It is only your side that is using terms like “evil” when describing corporations. That is your second straw man in this thread.[/quote]

You used the term “corporations”. DO you see that? It’s the first fucking word you typed in the post beowolf quoted. See it? Wait - let me bold it for you.

Beowolf then put quotation marks around “coroporations”. Instead of typing out the word again, he used the proper pronoun, and put them in quotations.

The mere fact that you think quotation marks are a form of logical fallacy is laughable, not surprising - but laughable.

37

[quote]Gael wrote:
Twice you have attacked me personally but failed to add substance to the discussion, both times missing my point. The point of my post which Orion responded to was that one person’s economic decisions/mistakes affects far more than just themselves. This is a point that libertarians do not like to concede. I did not make any point beyond that. Do not presume to label me as anti-capitalist.

Ideally, I would support a freer market, but the “free market” that we have is a mirage. The only true capitalism is small businesses. They are the ones that are free to go bankrupt; big business is bailed out by the government. The system has become so plagued by corporate crime, fraud, and abuse that it’s a stretch to even call it capitalism.[/quote]

…Take… economics…

Externalities. Libertarians believe in em plenty.

WE ARE NOT RON PAUL.

lemme repeat that.

WE ARE NOT RON PAUL

one more time

WE ARE NOT RON PAUL

Thank you and good night.

(Oh and what the hell do you expect? You’ve started two threads doing nothing but bashing logical concepts with outlandish and ridiculous claims. I’m assuming you’re trolling and responding in kind. Real arguments don’t work on uninformed trolls.)

[Your post: Libertarianism sucks WAAAAAH. A post I would take seriously: Hey guys, what is the appeal of libertarianism? Doesn’t it not take X, Y and Z into account?]

38

[quote]rainjack wrote:

You used the term “corporations”. DO you see that? It’s the first fucking word you typed in the post beowolf quoted. See it? Wait - let me bold it for you.

Beowolf then put quotation marks around “coroporations”. Instead of typing out the word again, he used the proper pronoun, and put them in quotations.

The mere fact that you think quotation marks are a form of logical fallacy is laughable, not surprising - but laughable.

[/quote]

This is a day for the T-Nation Politics and World Issues history books… RJ just defended me!!!

Am I growns up people now??

And I put “they” in quotes because you have seemed to forget that “they” are made up of real people with real faces and real names. “They” are not just the top tier, faceless and heartless (in your mind) “bastards” who run the thing. Corps, public ones in particular, are made up of thousands, and sometimes millions of people. People from all socioeconomic areas.

Talking about a corp as if it were an independent entity from “the people” is usually fallacious. Not always, as there are times when corps attempt to restrict the market, but “they” (once again) aren’t the evil sonnovabitch fatcats from movies who never attend there sons baseball , games because there too busy with “work” (which in Hollywood, consist of sitting on your ass).

39

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
This is a day for the T-Nation Politics and World Issues history books… RJ just defended me!!!

Am I growns up people now??
[/quote]

You’re gettin’ there, kid.

40

Beowolf, you are dragging the level of discourse down with your posts. I did not insult anyone, and you are the only one who seems to have taken offense at the pointed nature of my posts.

Respect to Lifticus and Orion who have responded with dignity.

The corporation, though comprised of people, IS a separate entity from the people. Corporate behavior is not individual behavior. Corporations behave in ways that the vast majority of individuals would not. You cannot predict corporate behavior as if the corporation were an individual.

Corporations do not vote, have kids, or die in Iraq. They do not go home to their families. The do not persue multi tiered dreams that humans do. Corporations are comprised of humans (insight!) yes, but the structure works to weed out the human component, the human motivations that create human behavior. The corporate profiteering motive is single minded, and legislation requires that corporations, when their is a choice, place the interests of stockholders above all else. This weeds out the human component.

What is left is a beast of human creation with behavior that can neither be credited nor blamed on any single person.