T Nation

Libertarians

Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

And so on.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

And so on.

[/quote]

All good points.

[quote]Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. [/quote]

Government is the embodiment all that is wrong with humanity.

Democracy might even be the worst form of government because it is all based on lies – lies which you no doubt have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

[quote]
Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.[/quote]

Democracy is false choice and tyranny of special interest. Capitalism is an efficient method for creating wealth from privately owned property. It is what allows us to have many choices. Capitalism is the machine of freedom.

You have a negative opinion of capitalism because you see the effects of big business getting in bed with big government. You blame an economic system that benefits you everyday when you should blame the system of government that allows corruption. Without government protection business owners would have to play fair or go broke. It isn’t capitalism that is the culprit but rather the false choice of democracy that is bought and sold by special interest.

In fact, capitalism verses democracy is precisely the opposite what what you say. You vote everyday with your wallet and it is far better for you and humanity than government any day of the week.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.[/quote]

40,000 lobbyist in Washington show that they sure try to influence those who do, though.

Depending on what you ignore, you can get sued and eventually, you’ll have people coming over to seize some property, after a judge has ruled against you.

Getting shot is unlikely, but then again, the government doesn’t shoot many citizens either.

Not directly, no. But if you work for one, all the fringe benefits you enjoy are considered part of your salary by the company and those “costs” are not on your check, nor is it generally possible to opt out.

All corporate subsidies given by the government come out from your check. It’s not done directly by the corporations, but they end up with the money anyway. If all corporations refused “corporate welfare,” you’d have a point.

When does the government force you to use a service?

[quote]pookie wrote:
When does the government force you to use a service?
[/quote]

They don’t force us to use services per se but they will penalize competition in certain industries which ultimately is just like force if we require certain services. Drug treatments are one of the biggest I can think of.

[quote]pookie wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

40,000 lobbyist in Washington show that they sure try to influence those who do, though.

[/quote]

Huge problem. Less power in Washington will lead to less corruption

[quote]Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.[/quote]

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

[quote]pookie wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

40,000 lobbyist in Washington show that they sure try to influence those who do, though.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

Depending on what you ignore, you can get sued and eventually, you’ll have people coming over to seize some property, after a judge has ruled against you.

Getting shot is unlikely, but then again, the government doesn’t shoot many citizens either.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Not directly, no. But if you work for one, all the fringe benefits you enjoy are considered part of your salary by the company and those “costs” are not on your check, nor is it generally possible to opt out.

All corporate subsidies given by the government come out from your check. It’s not done directly by the corporations, but they end up with the money anyway. If all corporations refused “corporate welfare,” you’d have a point.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

When does the government force you to use a service?
[/quote]

Right. The government has too much power.

[quote]orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.
[/quote]

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country. [/quote]

Yes they do.

And yet this happens whenever corporations believe government will let them get away with it.

Yes they do.

And neither does government.

[quote]Gael wrote:
orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

[/quote]

Sounds like China, N.Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc are more up your speed. Obviously, other peoples freedoms piss you off.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Without government protection business owners would have to play fair or go broke.[/quote]

Drug dealers that push to school children do not play fair, have no government protection, and they do not go broke. They manipulate and prey upon children. That is not fair.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

And so on.

[/quote]

Funny how the Left doesn’t understand the difference.
“The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip ought to learn the difference on his own hide. As, I think, he will.”
— Ayn Rand (Shrugged)

[quote]pat wrote:
Gael wrote:
orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

Sounds like China, N.Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc are more up your speed. Obviously, other peoples freedoms piss you off.[/quote]

Right, call the other guy a communist. How noble of you.

Corporations are not people, and they should not have constitutional rights. They are charters granted by the state and only have the freedoms that we the people grant them. People have freedom over their private property, but in the examples I have, they are exercising control over the commons, which is not theirs to exploit. Your property is the context for my property. Simply because you own the property does not mean you can blast your radio at volume 10 at 3 in the morning in a residential area.

[quote]Gael wrote:
pat wrote:
Gael wrote:
orion wrote:
Gael wrote:
Democratic government can do no wrong. Don’t you see? If an elected official does wrong, he won’t be reelected. Besides, why would an elected official do something that would be bad for his voters? The interests of a politician and the people are one and the same. Politicians simply offer a service, which they advertise in their campaign, and voters buy it with votes. No one is forcing you to vote for politicians you don’t like.

Therefore it is impossible for anything bad to happen, and if something bad does happen to you, it’s your fault for spending your votes unwisely. So in the long run, it is completely self regulating and thus peace, harmony, and happiness breaks out.

Now replace Democratic government with capitalism, elected official and politician with corporation, voter with consumer, and tell me what the difference is.

The difference is that no producer can legally make another person pay for my mistakes. Not the rich, not my grandchildren, not the Iraqis.

This is why democracy is not self regulating like free markets are. Free markets force you to learn.

Nonsense. Because of the mistakes of others, the river near where I live is neither fishable nor swimmable nor drinkable.

Because of the mistakes of others advertising is running rampant, appearing more and more in places that should not be for sale, in obscene and crass ways.

Because of the mistakes of others, the stores lining the city streets are being replaced by a shitty handful of trashy fast food restaurants that comes at the expense of health and community and ecology.

Because of the mistakes of others, Fox News exists, propagandizes, distracts, lies, and is supported by the marketplace.

The mistakes of others – unbridled greed – have eroded the market value of real estate property where I live.

Because of the mistakes of others, criminal corporations go relatively unpunished, and the marketplace has failed to correct this.

Because of the mistakes of others, half of the mountains in Appalachia will be gone within the next 30 years.

You cannot pretend that those who boycott the offending corporations are not affected. This is one world we all share, and there are many things in life that are more important than the greedy man’s right to make a buck preying on others while calling it a “service” simply because they have successfully manipulated people into becoming consumers.

Sounds like China, N.Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, etc are more up your speed. Obviously, other peoples freedoms piss you off.

Right, call the other guy a communist. How noble of you.

Corporations are not people, and they should not have constitutional rights. They are charters granted by the state and only have the freedoms that we the people grant them. People have freedom over their private property, but in the examples I have, they are exercising control over the commons, which is not theirs to exploit. Your property is the context for my property. Simply because you own the property does not mean you can blast your radio at volume 10 at 3 in the morning in a residential area.[/quote]

Mine goes to 11.

[quote]Gael wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Without government protection business owners would have to play fair or go broke.

Drug dealers that push to school children do not play fair, have no government protection, and they do not go broke. They manipulate and prey upon children. That is not fair.[/quote]

How do drug pushers prey on people with no money and no real access to money? I think you swallowed the DARE nonsense a little too easily. Drug use and pushing is not a crime.

Monitor your kids whereabouts at all times if you are worried they may be doing something you do no approve of.

[quote]
MrRezister wrote:
Well for one, corporations don’t enact laws that can affect the freedom of everyone in the country.

Gael wrote:
Yes they do. [/quote]

^That’s the part where you’re expected to provide an example of a corporation enacting a law.

[quote]
MrRezister wrote:
For two, I can choose to ignore what corporations say without worrying about their enforcers coming to my house and shooting me.

Gael wrote:
And yet this happens whenever corporations believe government will let them get away with it.[/quote]

This is another good place for you to cite an example, preferably of some American corporation, breaking into an American home and either seizing their property or threatening their well-being. Please be specific.

[quote]
MrRezister wrote:
For three, corporations don’t take money out of my check before I ever fucking get it.

Gael wrote:
Yes they do.[/quote]

Another brilliant rebuttal.

They do? Are they by any chance the corporations that I WORK for, you know, the ones putting food on my table? Then I guess if I disagree with what they are doing with the money that they are paying me I SHOULD QUIT WORKING FOR THEM. If some company that I don’t work for is taking money out of my check before I get it, please tell me who they are and why. Thanks.

[quote]
MrRezister wrote:
Fourthly, corporations can’t force me to partake of their goods or services.

Gael wrote:
And neither does government. [/quote]

Tell it to people in California who want to home-school their children.

You: Without gov’t, business only plays nice
Me: Counterexample
You: But it’s your fault.

[quote]pookie wrote:
When does the government force you to use a service?
[/quote]

Don’t you have government health care? What are your options versus government health care in Canada?