[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
The “true goal” means different things to different people, but Robert Nozick lays it out pretty well in Anarchy, State and Utopia, which was a response to John Rawls, A Theory of Justice.
Edit: I’d say Nozick lays out the “right wing” vision of Libertarianism as opposed to the more “social” libertarians. [/quote]
He lays out the “minarchist” vision of libertarianism as opposed to the “anarchist” vision. Though I definitely think anarchy is desirable, I think minarchy would be the minimum necessary to prevent people(who, possibly because of my Christianity, I view as very flawed) from handing all power to the first person to stand up and claim leadership(people tend to be sheep).
[quote]H factor wrote:
The left claims they are for freedom by allowing things like personal choice when it comes to some drugs and things like abortion.
Why aren’t we teaching creationism in science classes type shit. The Bible verse on the Texas run through thing got righties up in arms because how can the government tell those kids they can’t have that on their and have their faith? If it was a verse from the Koran…be a whole different story with that crowd. They are the biggest fighters against any faith that isn’t their own.
[/quote]
Be careful with trying to represent libertarianism as pro-abortion(not sure if that’s what you were doing…it just seemed you may be, to me). There are at least two schools of thought in the libertarian party on that issue. A lot depends on when someone considers a fetus to be living(actually, the Ayn Rand branch may say abortion is fine because nobody has a right to live off of anyone else). I would say it’s a human from the moment of conception(just to be on the safe side). I would answer the Ayn Rand branch by saying that although nobody has a right to live off anyone else, a person does have a right to obtain what is guaranteed them in a contract(or similar), even if the contract starts working against him or her at some point(the woman made a decision to have sex and she has to deal with the consequences-I’m not articulating my belief well here-maybe I’ll be able to do it better after sleeping).
As far as teaching creationism in science class goes, that is as legitimate as teaching evolution in science class. Neither can be proven. Both are religious views. It would be better to leave things that can’t be proven out of science class and stick to…science(remember having to use the scientific method when you did a science project in fifth grade?).
I had to look up the “Texas run through thing,” and I see no way for the “right” to fight the school board on that one. If the federal government was stepping in, I would say the Constitution actually allowed for STATES to sponsor religion. It just didn’t allow for a national religion. By the same token, surely a LOCAL school board can outlaw any religious display it wants. A libertarian would merely have to say that the display did not affect anyone’s life, liberty, or property.[/quote]
I don’t like the phrase pro abortion (I much prefer pro choice) as I’m all for limiting the amount of abortions. Sadly the pro life movement fights many of the best ways to do this. Access to contraceptives, teaching sex ed (not abstinence only) and safe sex. Instead of fighting to limit the amount of abortions by decreasing unwanted pregnancies they focus all their attention on trying to overturn Roe V. Wade. Abortion will happen if that is overturned. Look at Romania. Look at the U.S. before Roe. Why not fight to limit it and make it as safe as possible for those who choose to do it? Or is the life of the mother choosing to do it not important?
Obviously not all libertarians feel like me, but it is in the official platform. I tried to put that in my original post that libertarians just like any other party or view have many conflicting thoughts.
Evolution is NOT a religious view. It has scientific backing creationism does not. A lot of what is taught in science can’t be fully proven. It’s the theory of evolution just like so much else of science is theory. It has scientific factual evidence behind it. The same cannot be said for creationism which has absolutely no reason to be taught in a public funded science class. You want it in religious studies go for it. I don’t really care if people choose to believe in the flying spaghetti monster. But let’s not call it science.
The texas run through thing was more the inconsistency in many righties “freedom to worship” views. They get pretty pissed if someone fights a Bible verse, but what if someone built a Mosque? That gets their panties in a bunch pretty damn quick.
his mom is a lobbyist for the teachers union (she influences his political stance greatly and he has voted for obama (and full on dems) both times, as he is not super political)
and he associates himself with being a libertarian…
LOL WTF BRO??? this is what I’m talking about when I said how people think they are libertarian.
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
My friend is a Union Pipefitter (sp?)
his mom is a lobbyist for the teachers union (she influences his political stance greatly and he has voted for obama (and full on dems) both times, as he is not super political)
and he associates himself with being a libertarian…
LOL WTF BRO??? this is what I’m talking about when I said how people think they are libertarian.[/quote]
Sadly (imo) many people who are libertarian or claim to be will vote D or R on the basis of the lesser of two evils vote. If you go around some political forums you can see many libs telling people to vote Obama or Romney because of their feelings on the other guy. Keeps the party from gaining any traction.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
If my only knowledge of libertarians was that article I would assume they were just people who enjoyed prostitutes for gay sex while under the influence of drugs.
Oh and they don’t like taxes because it cuts into their budgets for the above.[/quote]
This is the problem for many libertarians. They only board the libertarian bus so they can get off at these destinations ^. Many of them don’t give a shit about the true goal.[/quote]
IMO Libertarianism is all about freedom . I personally do not see a conflict with social or communal projects . Laws are a necessary evil in society but at present we have laws that are not only (NOT NECESSARY) but they are detrimental to society both in the personal and the fiscal sense
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
My friend is a Union Pipefitter (sp?)
his mom is a lobbyist for the teachers union (she influences his political stance greatly and he has voted for obama (and full on dems) both times, as he is not super political)
and he associates himself with being a libertarian…
LOL WTF BRO??? this is what I’m talking about when I said how people think they are libertarian.[/quote]
It may be hard for you to understand but your friend that voted for the Democratic ticket voted for what is best for his personal career . republicans would dismantle every Union if they could . When I was Union I mostly voted the ticket the Union endorsed
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugalâ??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
â??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,â?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered â??problematicâ?? â?? those who repeatedly use â??hardâ?? drugs and intravenous users â?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugalâ??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
â??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,â?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered â??problematicâ?? â?? those who repeatedly use â??hardâ?? drugs and intravenous users â?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."[/quote]
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugal�¢??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
�¢??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,�¢?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered �¢??problematic�¢?? �¢?? those who repeatedly use �¢??hard�¢?? drugs and intravenous users �¢?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."[/quote]
I would be willing to try this here.
[/quote]
Mathew Perry hosted a guest Pierce Morgan episode on this subject. There is definitely a trend in this direction. The Netherlands will likely follow suit
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugal�?�¢??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
�?�¢??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,�?�¢?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered �?�¢??problematic�?�¢?? �?�¢?? those who repeatedly use �?�¢??hard�?�¢?? drugs and intravenous users �?�¢?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."[/quote]
I would be willing to try this here.
[/quote]
Mathew Perry hosted a guest Pierce Morgan episode on this subject. There is definitely a trend in this direction. The Netherlands will likely follow suit[/quote]
I would prefer to spend tax dollars helping people get off of drugs than spend the money putting them in jail.
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
Their primary argument was that these people will not become reoffenders, in this way saving tax dollars. Prison industry lobby doesn’t agree
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugal�??�?�¢??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
�??�?�¢??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,�??�?�¢?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered �??�?�¢??problematic�??�?�¢?? �??�?�¢?? those who repeatedly use �??�?�¢??hard�??�?�¢?? drugs and intravenous users �??�?�¢?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."[/quote]
I would be willing to try this here.
[/quote]
Mathew Perry hosted a guest Pierce Morgan episode on this subject. There is definitely a trend in this direction. The Netherlands will likely follow suit[/quote]
I would prefer to spend tax dollars helping people get off of drugs than spend the money putting them in jail.
[/quote]
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
heres an interesting article, the most libertarian countries catagorized by topic:
ALL DRUGS LEGAL in portugal
Russia is the MOST CORRUPT western nation
PROSTITUTION is essentialy legal in Canada
[/quote]
Wonder what the result has been for Portugal?
Are there more or less STD’s in Canada?[/quote]
As would be expected, drug use in Portugal has drastically reduced. I pointed this out several years ago. One of the symptoms of addiction (especially in the later stages) is stockpiling in order to ensure availability of supply. Another aspect of this symptom is introducing new users or dragging recovered addicts back into active addiction. The AA people call that misery loves company.
Stockpiling in turn leads to binging, because another symptom of addiction is an inability to stop. Binging in turn makes people even more addicted. So it’s a viscous cycle that just feeds itself.
Once the government stops creating this insecurity of supply drama, addicts (who are sick people) stop reacting to it in a self destructive manner.
"Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugal�??�?�¢??s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.
�??�?�¢??There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,�??�?�¢?? said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.
The number of addicts considered �??�?�¢??problematic�??�?�¢?? �??�?�¢?? those who repeatedly use �??�?�¢??hard�??�?�¢?? drugs and intravenous users �??�?�¢?? had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said."[/quote]
I would be willing to try this here.
[/quote]
Mathew Perry hosted a guest Pierce Morgan episode on this subject. There is definitely a trend in this direction. The Netherlands will likely follow suit[/quote]
I would prefer to spend tax dollars helping people get off of drugs than spend the money putting them in jail.
[/quote]
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
If my only knowledge of libertarians was that article I would assume they were just people who enjoyed prostitutes for gay sex while under the influence of drugs.
Oh and they don’t like taxes because it cuts into their budgets for the above.[/quote]
This is the problem for many libertarians. They only board the libertarian bus so they can get off at these destinations ^. Many of them don’t give a shit about the true goal.[/quote]
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
If my only knowledge of libertarians was that article I would assume they were just people who enjoyed prostitutes for gay sex while under the influence of drugs.
Oh and they don’t like taxes because it cuts into their budgets for the above.[/quote]
This is the problem for many libertarians. They only board the libertarian bus so they can get off at these destinations ^. Many of them don’t give a shit about the true goal.[/quote]
Whats the true goal?
[/quote]
Pretty sure I already mentioned it.
[/quote]
But, what’s the true goal?
/seewhatididthere?[/quote]
I know. I sometimes wonder if some folks really can’t read well or they read too fast and miss key points (I do this sometimes, I admit) or just can’t understand what they read without someone slowly and carefully explaining it to them like a child or they just don’t care and don’t read it at all but try and stay in the game thinking no one else will notice.[/quote]
Could you please restate your point , so it can not be hidden in all your other Rhetoric
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
My friend is a Union Pipefitter (sp?)
his mom is a lobbyist for the teachers union (she influences his political stance greatly and he has voted for obama (and full on dems) both times, as he is not super political)
and he associates himself with being a libertarian…
LOL WTF BRO??? this is what I’m talking about when I said how people think they are libertarian.[/quote]
It may be hard for you to understand but your friend that voted for the Democratic ticket voted for what is best for his personal career . republicans would dismantle every Union if they could . When I was Union I mostly voted the ticket the Union endorsed
[/quote]
FACEPALM
I have to remind my friend of this. I’m damn aware of the SELFISH nature of unions. I repeatedly explain to him how anything that is good for his union, is bad for EVERYONE else.
He is smart enough to know that I’m right, and never has anything to say back cause he knows it’s true, usually ending the conversation with a greedy smile or chuckle.
