Liberalism Gone Too Far In Germany?

I thought it would be fun for me to start a discussion with the right-wing, conservative view (rather than my own left-wing liberal view), for a change.

So, here is the view of the Telegraph (aka The House Organ of Britain’s Conservative Party), on a recent situation in Germany - I’ll leave my comments for later. :slight_smile:

‘If you don’t take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits’
By Clare Chapman
(Filed: 30/01/2005)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services’’ at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Fantasy Six Nations

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners - who must pay tax and employee health insurance - were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile’’ and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany’s welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job - including in the sex industry - or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

“There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry,” said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. “The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits.”

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a “nude model”, and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

“Why shouldn’t I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?” said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.

"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don’t count as prostitution,‘’ she said.

“Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don’t want to do.”

This actually has been causing quite a stir in terms of on-line commentary. However, to quote from a commenter on The Chicago Boyz website:

http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/002828.html#012522

The article in the Daily Telegraph seems to have been cobbled together from several German sources.

The information about the waitress who was told to interview for a job that turned out to be at a brothel was taken from an article on “jungle-world.com,” which calls itself a “leftist weekly.” ( http://www.jungle-world.com/seiten/2003/31/1346.php ) That article was posted July 30, 2003 (!!). The 25-year-old waitress was told to contact the company “Reni Massage.” The woman found the company’s website and figured out that it was a brothel and decided to not get in touch. According to the Berlin employment center, the job posting had been sent to the woman by mistake. The job offer had been for bar staff (not for “sexual services,” as the Telegraph article claims) and it hadn’t been obvious from the information that the employment center had received that the company was a brothel.

The second part of the Daily Telegraph article contains information also found in an article from the leftist alternative Berlin daily “tageszeitung,” filed on December 18, 2004 ( Ein Job wie jeder andere - taz.de ). Both articles quote a Hamburg lawyer called Mechthild Garweg (note that the Telegraph misspells her first name). In the “tageszeitung” article, Ms. Garweg notes that there is nothing in the law regulating unemployment benefits that would prevent an employment center to force a woman to work as a prostitute if she wants to keep her benefits. It is clear from the article that this is merely a theoretical possibility. German employment centers have meanwhile asserted that they would not be passing on job offers for prostitution.


It seems to be consensus that the sourcing on the story is suspect. Perhaps makkun, our resident German national, can comment?

what the crap, seriously, i dont even know what to say.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
It seems to be consensus that the sourcing on the story is suspect. Perhaps makkun, our resident German national, can comment?[/quote]

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clearer in my initial posting about what my intentions were, but I was fishing for somebody else making the point for me, which you did very nicely. :slight_smile: Kudos for your rational approach to this.

We don’t need to wait for makkun - I called some of my German friends when I read this on Sunday and we are still laughing. This is basically a ridiculous example of how biased the Telegraph is sometimes, and to what lengths they go to distort the truth.

Yes, because, as you very well suspected, this story is basically a very badly crafted concoction.

I hope at least this time we can all agree that there are indeed situations in which conservative media does blatantly distort facts to polarize people and gain supporters for their cause - like in this case.

BB, thanks for thinking of me.
Beside the high entertainment value of the article, I just checked the TAZ-article, and my quick impression is also that this is also a put a bit out of proportion. Under the new Hartz IV regulation, you can indeed be pressured to take on a job offer or come into danger of loosing your benefits. And prostitution is now legal.

But as far as it seems, the coercion to take on jobs does not reach to actual sex work. The grey area in this case would be non-sexual services within this kind of industry. As an equivalent they offer an example of a muslim women who might be “forced” to work in a place where pigs are being slaughtered.

Intellectually, and from an entertainment value this is interesting news, but so far there has been a consensus in job centres not to service brothels. Though I bet there will be surely a few interesting headlines popping up before common practice has been established.

Makkun

I would prefer liberalism runs amok in Germany. Let’s look at the results of conservatism run amok in the Reich:

Soldiers killed: 19.2 million.

Civilians killed: 39.2 million.

Let the fruitloops, hippies, and hookers run the place, we’re all better off.

Makkun:

I would prefer liberalism runs amok in Germany. Let’s look at the results of conservatism run amok in the Reich:

Soldiers killed: 19.2 million.

Civilians killed: 39.2 million.

Let the fruitloops, hippies, and hookers run the place, we’re all better off.

Cream,

[quote]Cream wrote:
Makkun:

I would prefer liberalism runs amok in Germany. Let’s look at the results of conservatism run amok in the Reich:

Soldiers killed: 19.2 million.

Civilians killed: 39.2 million.

Let the fruitloops, hippies, and hookers run the place, we’re all better off. [/quote]

According to some here, that already seems to be the case. :wink:

Makkun

PS: Calling Germany the “Reich” really sucks.

[quote]Cream wrote:
Makkun:

I would prefer liberalism runs amok in Germany. Let’s look at the results of conservatism run amok in the Reich:

Soldiers killed: 19.2 million.

Civilians killed: 39.2 million.

Let the fruitloops, hippies, and hookers run the place, we’re all better off. [/quote]

The National Socialist German Workers Party has nothing to do with Conservatism. People often see them as the same thing, they’re not however.

Dustin

As opposed to attacking Germany for being too liberal and also (from another thread) “appeasing” terrorists, I think people should be worried about Germany sliding back to the far right and no longer “appeasing” the US. In recently reading an article about the outrage on the date of the Dresden firebombing it seems there might be a growing movement there which is trying to do exactly that.

First off, cutting welfare and sending people into poverty is the opposite of liberalism, thats Reaganism.

Since the first afterwar generation is in the voting majority german politcs are dominated by the left, unions and pacifism. And hell, we could afford it, in the late 80’s we were the No 1 economy in the world. But since the reunification everthing went down for several reasons. In East Germany the unemplyoment rate is something like 25%. What people have to realize here is that we no longer can afford 35-hour work weeks and 6 weeks of paid vacaction a year. The average payment for non-college graduates is still almost twice as high in germany than the us.

@Cream

You dont know stuck. Thats the main reason for anti-american?sm trough the world, that many people somehow get the impression that most americans have no idea of life in the rest of the world, that they rather worry about a nipple on tv than the war overseas and in the innercities.

@Jay

America isnt slighting in the far right, Americas politics are dominated by the far right.

Jay,

It amazes me what the German people have overcome in the last hundred years. Having a generation wiped out in WWI, rebounding to the top global power going into WWII, losing another generation only to become the leading nation in the EU.

Ken,

I disagree. What far-right politicians or policies exist in the U.S. Do be frank, the U.S. has slowly shifted into a light socialism since WWII, especially when you consider the way the country was orginally set up.

Dustin

Great post Dustin.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Great post Dustin.[/quote]

Thanks!

Dustin