T Nation

Liberal 1 Step Thinkers


Why do so many liberals believe what they believe? The answer is that they never learned how to think. More specifically, simple-minded people lack imagination. Those who are simple-minded can readily point out what they see, when it’s directly in front of them, but they have a difficult time comprehending what could have been but did not occur.

Liberals can readily see the benefits of a so-called environmentally friendly car that runs on electricity, and thus requires no on-board supply of fossil fuel, but they neglect to see the fossil fuels burned at the power plan to create the electricity for re-charging the vehicle every night. They immediately and enthusiastically accept the idea of a hydrogen-powered car that emits only water vapor, but never stop to ask how hydrogen is produced. The answer: steam is mixed with methane and a catalyst to release hydrogen, with carbon dioxide, their enemy the greenhouse gas, as a by-product, which liberal loons want punished with carbon credits.

Liberal 1 step thinking says let’s enact new regulation on all businesses that have 50 or more employees. Liberals fail to think small business owners with 49 or fewer employees do their best not to hire additional employees, to avoid being burdened with the costs of the new regulations. Even the big companies stop hiring and what do liberals do? They hurt the economy further by saying lets boycott them:

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/john-schnatter-papa-johns-ceo-obamacare-likely-to-raise-costs-employees-hours-being-cut

Liberals look at unwanted pregnancies, for example, and believe unrestricted, federally-funded abortions are the answer. It doesn’t occur to them to suggest that 14-year old girls should not be having sex protected or not. In discussing the spread of AIDS, the liberals focus on finding a cure, when prevention is the more important side of the equation. To a liberal, Pass out free needles to drug users is preferable to, Don’t shoot drugs into your veins, and find a cure for AIDS is preferable to, don’t have sex with a stranger you just met in a bar.

Anyone be damned should they suggest restricting someone’s lifestyle choice. Unless of course it was Big Tobacco who gave billions to the Republicans, then it’s okay to restrict lifestyle choice. Don’t drink super sized cokes either and don’t play with blasting caps, the thought police are gearing up as I type.

Nope pushharder, PWI is certainly not a “GOP blowjob barn” nope not at all. No sir. That would be a ridiculous claim when it is obvious all opinions are welcome for discussion. Yup. Yes sir. wink wink

Uber-polarized, American political issues/caricatures= Funny shit!!

Your post unvoluntarily show why liberals won the election, why they dominate the mainstream media, and why they will probably “occupy” the political field for quite some time.

You nailed it :
they do many bad things :
They regulate. They fund. They invent. They pass out free things. They try to find cures.
But they DO.

You say :
“don’t do drugs.”
“don’t have unprotected sex. And no sex at all if you’re 14 year old.”

You can’t even suggest to outlaw these things. They are already illegal.
That’s just talk.

So, you’re left with economical laissez faire and morality-talk.

While average Joe and girl-next-door want political action.

Granted, they don’t want to pay too much for it, if at all.
But if they would not want political action, they would not vote republican either. They would just be libertarians.

In troubled times, “a small State” sound suspÃ?®ciously like “a weak State”.
You will have to demonstrate how and why “a smaller State” can be a “stronger State”.

If you don’t, people while keep choosing the other side, because “at least they are trying”.

Lol you sound like a fantastic senate candidate throw in that rape is gods gift to women and you can’t lose.

I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress. [/quote]

I can agree with this, to some degree. I definitely hate the way parties use labels in an effort to get you to think of them a certain way, often totally separated from reality. “Progressive”, of course, insinuating that anybody who disagrees with you is backwards. “Conservative” to imply that your opponents are wild and irresponsible. Etc etc.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress. [/quote]

I can agree with this, to some degree. I definitely hate the way parties use labels in an effort to get you to think of them a certain way, often totally separated from reality. “Progressive”, of course, insinuating that anybody who disagrees with you is backwards. “Conservative” to imply that your opponents are wild and irresponsible. Etc etc. [/quote]

In my opinion some progressive ideas are very conservative

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . [/quote]

Call me crazy but I agree with you. :wink:

I could give you shit for spending more time running the right up the flag pole and only mentioning the left’s short comings in passing, but I won’t, because what I believe you are getting at is a valid point.

A good idea, is a good idea. But that idea needs to be thought through. Obamacare is a perfect example. Morally it accomplishes many great things, fiscally it is an abomination. The moral idea is good, and if you only look at the surface moral issues, you will cheer it. If you follow the paper trail suddenly it isn’t so pretty a picture.

But yes, we spend too much time putting individuals in a labeled box rather than listening to their ideas. I’ve been guilty of this myself.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

In my opinion some progressive ideas are very conservative
[/quote]

Such as?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress. [/quote]

I am sorry, but I think you are wrong!

I think it is important to separate the terms conservative from conservativist and liberal
from liberalist.

Liberal and conservative are rather words that describe attidudes either in single cases or as an character trait. For instance I am conservative when it comes to the welfare state in Norway, wich means I want to preserve it, but it doesnt make me a follower of conservatism( a ideology that in many ways is a sub-ideology of the larger liberalist family of ideologies ). On the other hand my position regarding Gay marriage is liberal since I dont want the government to denie or restrict Homosexuals to marry, But I am not a liberalist because of this.

Further liberal and conservative are not opposed terms, it is more correct IMO to say that restrictive is the opposit of liberal and progressiv is the opposit of conservative, but conservativist can be progressiv in attitude and a liberalist can be restrictive in attitude.

When it comes to Liberalism and conservativism we are talking about ideological traditions that not always have any thing to do with the terms liberal and conservative.

Liberalism is basickly the mother head of all ideologies that promote rule of law, democracy and civil/human rights and it can be argued that both social-liberalism, conservativism, libertarianism and democratic socialism belongs to this tradition one way or the other. To make it simplistic you can put them on a left-right axis to show their differences:

Left: democratic-socialism ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer collective measures when it comes to the economy )

Center-left: Social-liberalists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but wants the state to regulate the market and provide a safty net for the populace )

Center-right: Conservativists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but
prefer that the state interfere as little as possible in the market, though conservativists often are okay with a safty net and some regulations of the market )

Right: Libertarians. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer that the state dont interfere with the market. They often oppose a safty ned provided by the government )

Thats how I see it anyway.

Edit: Thunderbolt is the poster on this forum that is closest to the conservativist ideology IMO. Most are somewhere between libertarianism and social-liberalism.

[quote]kamui wrote:
Your post unvoluntarily show why liberals won the election, why they dominate the mainstream media, and why they will probably “occupy” the political field for quite some time.

You nailed it :
they do many bad things :
They regulate. They fund. They invent. They pass out free things. They try to find cures.
But they DO.

You say :
“don’t do drugs.”
“don’t have unprotected sex. And no sex at all if you’re 14 year old.”

You can’t even suggest to outlaw these things. They are already illegal.
That’s just talk.

So, you’re left with economical laissez faire and morality-talk.

While average Joe and girl-next-door want political action.

Granted, they don’t want to pay too much for it, if at all.
But if they would not want political action, they would not vote republican either. They would just be libertarians.

In troubled times, “a small State” sound suspÃ??Ã?®ciously like “a weak State”.
You will have to demonstrate how and why “a smaller State” can be a “stronger State”.

If you don’t, people while keep choosing the other side, because “at least they are trying”.
[/quote]And you illustrate another powerful aspect of why our once great nation is dead. We used to have entire presidential administrations where the government did NOTHING and we were far better off as a nation than now. Our country was not designed to rely on the non stop machinations of government, but that’s where we have fallen to. It is one of the major symptoms of the slashing of our character from individuals who DID to collectivist groups waiting for others through government to do FOR us and on our behalf. You’re right though. This IS our future and it makes us just like the rest of mediocre at best nations in the the world. Our enemies have succeeded. Without firing a shot. And we dance in celebration of our own whimpering fizzling gasping squeaking funeral.
However. That doesn’t mean I’m not still looking forward to some more philosophical discussion with you.

Please change politics and world issues forum to “conservatives cry because their guy lost” forum. This is almost as good as watching lefty forums break down in 04!

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

In my opinion some progressive ideas are very conservative
[/quote]

Such as?[/quote]

Legalizing Pot would save America a boat load of money

Well, if you go that way… euthanatazing the baby boomers would save America a metric shit-ton of money too.

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress. [/quote]

I am sorry, but I think you are wrong!

I think it is important to separate the terms conservative from conservativist and liberal
from liberalist.

Liberal and conservative are rather words that describe attidudes either in single cases or as an character trait. For instance I am conservative when it comes to the welfare state in Norway, wich means I want to preserve it, but it doesnt make me a follower of conservatism( a ideology that in many ways is a sub-ideology of the larger liberalist family of ideologies ). On the other hand my position regarding Gay marriage is liberal since I dont want the government to denie or restrict Homosexuals to marry, But I am not a liberalist because of this.

Further liberal and conservative are not opposed terms, it is more correct IMO to say that restrictive is the opposit of liberal and progressiv is the opposit of conservative, but conservativist can be progressiv in attitude and a liberalist can be restrictive in attitude.

When it comes to Liberalism and conservativism we are talking about ideological traditions that not always have any thing to do with the terms liberal and conservative.

Liberalism is basickly the mother head of all ideologies that promote rule of law, democracy and civil/human rights and it can be argued that both social-liberalism, conservativism, libertarianism and democratic socialism belongs to this tradition one way or the other. To make it simplistic you can put them on a left-right axis to show their differences:

Left: democratic-socialism ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer collective measures when it comes to the economy )

Center-left: Social-liberalists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but wants the state to regulate the market and provide a safty net for the populace )

Center-right: Conservativists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but
prefer that the state interfere as little as possible in the market, though conservativists often are okay with a safty net and some regulations of the market )

Right: Libertarians. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer that the state dont interfere with the market. They often oppose a safty ned provided by the government )

Thats how I see it anyway.

Edit: Thunderbolt is the poster on this forum that is closest to the conservativist ideology IMO. Most are somewhere between libertarianism and social-liberalism.[/quote]

I think we agree more than disagree. I would label the Dems as more left than the Republicans . I would say labeling the Rep as right would be correct

I think I may have not been as clear as I should with the definition of Liberal and Conservative .I am going back to the origin of the word not what they have become . Take the word conservative some how it acquired a Religious connotation . How did that happen . The new term Social Conservative came about in the last few years and if you are a fiscally conservative and progressive, than you are a liberal because you may believe you should be able to marry any that wants to marry you

@florelius
same if you want to spend a quadrillion dollars a year on defense that makes you conservative ?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the problem lays in the politicalization of the terms conservative and liberal . The (so called conservatives) think being conservative means being mean to people that are not like they are , cutting spending on social programs, deregulating controls on any one that could do serious harm but regulating who regular people to death.Like who they can sleep with or regulating the forms of birth control women can use. And last but not least Jesus is lord and Jesus will have the last word on all political matters .

I agree progressives do get a little wacky . They are just as guilty of going to the Democrats as the so called conservatives are going to the Republicans .

In my opinion the terms Liberal and Conservative are not opposing . Conservative is a term about spending money.
Liberal is a term about freedoms .Progressive is a term about progress. [/quote]

I am sorry, but I think you are wrong!

I think it is important to separate the terms conservative from conservativist and liberal
from liberalist.

Liberal and conservative are rather words that describe attidudes either in single cases or as an character trait. For instance I am conservative when it comes to the welfare state in Norway, wich means I want to preserve it, but it doesnt make me a follower of conservatism( a ideology that in many ways is a sub-ideology of the larger liberalist family of ideologies ). On the other hand my position regarding Gay marriage is liberal since I dont want the government to denie or restrict Homosexuals to marry, But I am not a liberalist because of this.

Further liberal and conservative are not opposed terms, it is more correct IMO to say that restrictive is the opposit of liberal and progressiv is the opposit of conservative, but conservativist can be progressiv in attitude and a liberalist can be restrictive in attitude.

When it comes to Liberalism and conservativism we are talking about ideological traditions that not always have any thing to do with the terms liberal and conservative.

Liberalism is basickly the mother head of all ideologies that promote rule of law, democracy and civil/human rights and it can be argued that both social-liberalism, conservativism, libertarianism and democratic socialism belongs to this tradition one way or the other. To make it simplistic you can put them on a left-right axis to show their differences:

Left: democratic-socialism ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer collective measures when it comes to the economy )

Center-left: Social-liberalists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but wants the state to regulate the market and provide a safty net for the populace )

Center-right: Conservativists. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but
prefer that the state interfere as little as possible in the market, though conservativists often are okay with a safty net and some regulations of the market )

Right: Libertarians. ( in favor of rule of law, democracy and human rights, but prefer that the state dont interfere with the market. They often oppose a safty ned provided by the government )

Thats how I see it anyway.

Edit: Thunderbolt is the poster on this forum that is closest to the conservativist ideology IMO. Most are somewhere between libertarianism and social-liberalism.[/quote]

I think we agree more than disagree. I would label the Dems as more left than the Republicans . I would say labeling the Rep as right would be correct

I think I may have not been as clear as I should with the definition of Liberal and Conservative .I am going back to the origin of the word not what they have become . Take the word conservative some how it acquired a Religious connotation . How did that happen . The new term Social Conservative came about in the last few years and if you are a fiscally conservative and progressive, than you are a liberal because you may believe you should be able to marry any that wants to marry you
[/quote]

I think one of the reasons we disagree is that we have the atlantic ocean between us.
In Norway( and I assume in the non-english parts of the north of europa ) what you call social-conservative we call culturally conservative or just a religous-moralist. What you call a social-liberalist we call a culturally liberal or culturally radical. Social consertvativism and social-liberalism in my countries terminology describes the liberalists and conservativists who are more pragmatic when it comes to the issue of the market and the welfare state, meaning they are not dogmatic free-market proponents as a purist liberalist( what you call a libertarian ) would be.

In essence a conservative is a person who are sceptic to change and especially drastic change even though that person might support the reasons for measures of change. A true conservative would argue that the demolition of the welfare stae would be wrong because it would be a drastic change with consequences we cannot phantom. He would likewise argue against the implementation of a welfare state for the same reason. A conservatives main concern is to preserve the institutions and traditions that we allready have on the basis that they have served us well for so-long and while not perfect we atleast know them. Drastic change on the other hand might have dire consequences therefor we shoudl not seek that unless absolutley necessary. Thats how I understand Conservativism and what today is called conservativism is in my eyes often either regressivism( as in people who want to go back to institutions or traditions that are lost along time ago ), free-market-liberalists, religous-moralists or fiscally-moderates. That said you can also say there excist a specific anglo-american conservatist tradition who wants to preserve the ideal of the constitutional republic or monarchy( depends if they are english or american ).

Hope that made sense.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@florelius
same if you want to spend a quadrillion dollars a year on defense that makes you conservative ? [/quote]

I can see that it is not very fiscally responsible, especially if its not for defence, but for agressive warfare instead and think the classic liberalist thinker Adam Smith argued against war on the basis that it was ecomically unsound.

A conservative argument FOR the industrial-military-complex is that a demolition of such a gigantic structure could have a negative effect on the economy, employment numbers and in the last instance tax revenue. Its possible that they would say its better to leave as it is since the consequences could be worse.