T Nation

LH and FSH


#1

This thread is for my own educational purposes so please take it easy on me as I am genuinely interested in learning and educated answers would be appreciated. No bro science please.

I don't know everything, never claimed to, and don't intend to ever know "Everything" as the topic of AAS is ever evolving. And new drugs and methods are continually changing.

My question is, for the sake of fertility and future recovery. Is it possible to maintain healthy LH and FSH function for long periods of time for example blasting and cruising?

From my understanding HCG mimics LH but does little for FSH, however Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) stimulates LH, FSH and a few other things to include PRL, E2, T, and DHT

So to use both drugs in moderate doses for the duration of AAS usage would in theory maintain FSH, LH? Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Is it just simulating these hormones while actually suppressing natural function?

KS man recently wrote a good thread stating that low dose Nolva (20mg EOD or 10mgED) for the duration of a cycle would help prevent you from completely shutting down.. Therefor making for an easier recovery. Please forgive me if I misunderstood that.

Isn't that what HCG is used for?

"bro science" gives me the impression not to use both. But rather HCG through the cycle.

But would using both or cycling the two help maintain function. For example, using low dose Nolva during blasts and switching to HCG during cruises? Or vise versa?

Or perhaps even the combination of the two?

In a perfect world a healthy male who decided to use AAS would cycle on and off properly and always return to a healthy baseline. However that is not always the case. Many young men in they're mid-twentys to early 30s blast and cruise when they had a more than optimal endocrine system to begin with only for he sake of looking better than average all the time. Face it. We are men. We always want to look better, feel better, and will do unsafe things to obtain that. That is the main purpose of my thread. Is to get a good understanding of what or how it would be possible to maintain a healthy baseline months or even years after continual use.

I guess bottom line question is. Is it possible to maintain normal function after years of using nonstop. Even if you did Everything right regardless of he cost.

I'm not saying I'm committing to long term continual usage. But I'de be lying if I said blasting and cruising hasn't crossed my mind, especially if I could do everything right (in theory)

Because the fact of the matter is. I do want kids, I do want a family, and 10 years from now I can almost guarantee my priorities will have changed.

Just been on my mind a lot lately. Some friendly feedback would be great.

And I apologize for my lack of knowledge. But hey I came here to learn and evolve. Not to post about theoretic cycles batman would take.

-Ross


#2

There is no scientific proof for a SERM being able to maintain normal LH production on a steroid cycle because no one is going spend funds doing studies on this. Also, despite the estrogen blocking effect of the SERM, shutting down the production of gnrh due to the brain's detection of sufficent/ excess exogenous testosterone levels must also be taken into account.

Perhaps SERMS are able prevent or delay complete shutdown. I don't know. The only way to prove this is by using bloodwork.


#3

IIRC KSman explains in his thread why you should never use HCG and a SERM together so i would check that out again.

HCG is a human hormone so better for long term use (i.e blasting and cruising) but if not available you use a low dose SERM

Use the SERM to come off testosterone after discontinuing HCG.

I fully understand the desire to blast and cruise. My baseline test before using steroids was very low, at a level where TRT would be great for me so i have considered the B&C route a lot. As it stands i have done two cycles with proper PCT and that has gone well.

The reason i don't B&C is basically future fertility. I am 29 and do not yet have children but definitely want to keep that option available if possible. Obviously running cycles of steroids is not risk free but i love training and want to get the most i can from that too.

From what i have read it is very much genetic as to how well you recover, whether it be from 1 cycle, long term cycling or coming off after long term continual use.


#4

In my mid twenties, I decided to stop training and put all my attention on building my career. Now I can do whatever the fuck I want because I am financially secure and I'm at an age(36) where I can more or less foresee where life will take me. You just have to decide on your priorities. Focus on the important shit.

Your last sentence describes a woman, not a man.

EDIT

My opinion only. If you really have the drive and passion and intend to compete, obviously your priorities are different from mine and I respect that.

I was reacting to the increasing number of 160lb nimrods I meet in the gym talking to me about blasting and cruising.


#5

preach.

Fucking morons blasting and cruising left right and centre with absolutely no idea.

I've met kids in their teens who've been on for years. Scary stuff.


#6

The morons i meet just blast year round.

Fuck Cruising.


#7

Damn good thread.

Does the use of a SERM allow the body to continue to produce pregnenolone? Do we know why hCG does this? I am done having kids, but issues that are still relevant to me are testicle shrinkage, achy testes, and pregnenolone.


#8

A SERM will lead to useful [or excessive] LH/FSH levels while on gear. There is data to back that up and lab reports posted in the TRT forum.

You do not want high LH levels for a couple of reasons that I have discussed before.

SERM's are chemicals that you don't want in your body forever. hCG is a natural and safe human hormone.

The issue here has been addressed many times in the TRT forum because there are a lot of young guys who need TRT.

hCG preservers fertility quite well and yes, FSH is not there. So things can be better and for young men who are eventually going to be fathers, the issues are of a great concern.

What I have suggested is using hCG most of the time, then a few time per year, switch to a SERM for a tune up.

While wanting to avoid stacking SERM+hCG because of the negative effects; one might be able to stack half measures of each. But I still need to spread the message about general stacking.

When one is on SERM, LH/FSH levels can be checked to determine if levels are reasonable. One should also be checking E2 as well. If E2 gets out of control, SERM dose needs to be reduced. A few guys have problems finding a reasonable small dose. Ditto with hCG. With hCG, only E2 can be used as a warning sign as LH/FSH will be near zero.

While off topic for this post: We also have experience with guys who have a degree of primary hypogonadism and that adds a new wrinkle to these issues. There is a "HPTA restart" thread in the TRT forum that discusses these issues at a deeper level. It is linked from the start of the advice for new guys sticky.


#9

Current data acquired from studies shows exogenous testosterone shuts the hypothalamus down via the negative feedback loop. That is something a SERM can't prevent. Perhaps the SERM can substantially delay or prevent full shutdown because estrogen is much more suppressive than testosterone? Is there any data from studies conducted in a clinical setting that you can link us to? Thanks!


#10

In the TRT forum we have labs for almost everyone. We have several examples of guys who are shutdown on TRT, where LH/FSH-->0. When they are given a SERM by a doctor to increase sperm count, we see LH/FSH in normal ranges and very high levels when SERM dose is too high. Fertility docs do this all of the time for non-TRT men. So its there in our TRT forum lab reports and in fertility forums.

So there it is. Move on.


#11

A SERM will certainly raise LH/FSH without a replacement dose of testosterone being present in most cases. This is not in question.

Lab reports posted with feedback from unknowns online may not be the most credible source of information.

Not intending to get into an argument. Hopefully everyone intending to do this will just get regular bloodwork themselves and adjust whatever protocol they're using in accordance with the results.


#12

So for someone blasting and cruising would it make sense to use the blast times with a SERM (given potential gyno or rogue E2 issues with AI missteps) and hCG while cruising? Going under the assumption cruise times are roughly equal to blast times.


#13

I guess overall this is the answer I'm looking for, not to say it's the perfect way to keep function during extended use, but it seems like a very reasonable logical way to be proactive and preventative.

Now this also sounds more logical for extended or permanent TRT doses, I have to agree with Kount that for those of us running high levels of androgens and different compounds for say 8-10 weeks at a time the use of Nolva would be a better choice, and then switching to HCG during a cruise period of say 12-16 weeks.

What are your thoughts on this KS?


#14

Using Nolvadex supports the testes and also provides some protection from gyno. That is useful as labs are not typically run during cycles and AI dosing may not be creating the best E2 levels and that could risk gyno. So sounds like a winner. Then hCG can be used during PCT or cruise. During cruise if one does things the same and you do lab work, anastrozole dose can be fine tuned and then you know that to do in the future.

Example:

Because anastrozole is a competitive drug, we can take advantage of the linear aspects.

If you did labs and got E2=32 and your target is 22pg/ml: [22pg/ml seems optimal for a balance of mood, energy, fat patterns and libido]
New anastrozole dose = old dose * E2/22
lets say that old dose of anastrozole was 1.5mg/week
new dose = 1.5mg * 32/22 = 2.2mg/week
Note that method will correct AI dose both down and up.
If you increase T by 50% and increase AI by 50%, E2 will be about unchanged.


#15

I understand Adex is easier to dose on TRT, but if one were to stick with Aromasin for TRT purposes, what would be a good starting point? I like Aromasin for its ability to adjust dosages fairly quick, and also it's method of action. I think maybe 6.25 EOD? Does anyone else use Aromasin for this purpose?


#16

If you fellows are running other compounds with testosterone, you will not prevent shutdown with nolva(assuming that is even possible). Compounds with stronger AR or progesterone receptor binding afinities will shut you down just the same.


#17

I cruise at 250mg T a week and use between 7.5-12.5mg per week. I haven't done labs to confirm yet, but I did go higher at one point and it was too much. I am experimenting with dosing only when I inject. I feel like I am sensitive to aromasin and was way too sensitive to arimidex. I know I would be crushed at 6.25 EOD.


#18

Didn't consider this.


#19

I can't speak to the progesterone issue. But SERM's do turn on LH/FSH with HPTA shutdown in a TRT context. Does that hold with much larger T doses? I do not have data for that. But someone on gear+SERM could post LH/FSH labs. The question is whether high serum T levels will overwhelm effects of a SERM by swamping the AR receptors in the hypothalamus. But we also have to consider that at some point [serum T level] those receptors are probably saturated and more T might not increase HPTA repression.


#20

Increased T levels upregulate the AR. As for compounds, Trenbolone, for example, has a much higher afinity to bind with the AR than T.

I believe a SERM can curb suppression to an extent by preventing estrogen from binding to the receptors, but again, the negative feedback loop from exogenous T still exists even at TRT levels. I am not sure how it is possible that you have guys posting normal to excessive LH/FSH levels while on TRT(using testosterone). Have you considered that there have been flaws in their reporting of events during the period of SERM administration?