Let's Discuss Overhead Squats

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

I’m sorry but i think that is the dumbest thing ever, it’s like saying “i don’t need to be stronger”
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It’s not unheard of for weighltifters to only do the classic lifts, clean and snatch pulls, and back squats. Some of the best weightlifters in history train this way. You don’t have to do a thousand variations of a lift to be strong, that’s new-age mumbo-jumbo that coaches use to cover the fact that their clients aren’t improving. Do you feel that back squats don’t make you stronger?

As an example, I remember the first time I tested my front squat after a year of PL training. I made a 50 pound PR without having done a front squat in a year. That’s because I was stronger.[/quote]

Yes because you did some other type of strength work. I am aware that there were olympians that did only the classical lifts but remember that these guys (Krastev etc) all squatted 300+kg when they decided to focus on the classical lifts, strength wasn’t an issue. For someone who just started there is no way they can get their lifts up if they don’t have the strength.[/quote]

Lol. Go to a WL gym. It would likely be an eye-opening experience for you. Not trying to be a dick here, but they would laugh at you for suggesting that they need variety to get strong. Not Olympians, but novice and intermediate lifters as well. Consistent heavy lifting makes you strong, not variety. If your squat goes up and you are improving your snatch and clean technique as well, your clean and snatch will go up. Period. Beginning lifters can and do get stronger just snatching, cleaning, jerking, and squatting, although I agree that some pressing is eventually needed to strengthen the shoulders adequately for jerks and receiving the snatch. Many coaches, myself included, would also agree that heavy clean and snatch pulls are also good to add once a lifter reaches an intermediate level to provide more specific overload. This isn’t a novel idea, it’s literally the standard approach. 6-10 exercises, total. In the view of WL coaches variety is effort wasted. You could be spending that time improving your skill in the classic lifts and getting stronger on basic moves like the squat. This will ALWAYS provide a better result than having a lifter do a bunch of partial and developmental lifts. That’s the way they train. They aren’t CrossFitters, they’re athletes focusing on a specific set of skills. [/quote]

I never said you need variety to get strong, but you do need to squat is what I said. I have been to many weightlifting gyms and at every single one people squat.

[quote]burt128 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Yes to all your questions and i squat both low and high bar.

gree with above poster, i dont think they will carry your squat nu,bers higher.

HOWEVER, they are really fantastic for mobility, shoulder stability, back strength (upper), balance, and they basically do all of these things at the same time. So i don’t think that they help your squat numbers, but they help a lot of things that will keep you squatting longer and healthier. That in itself is worth a little time. Besides they help your shoulders get strong AND stable, which is useful for benching.

The basic rule of thumb is, if you can squat overhead with a med/narrow stance, it tells you that ALL of the joints are functioning optimally–t-spine extension is good, shoulders good, hips/knees/ankles good. And it maintains flexibility and mobility without a million prehab and/or mobility exercises after foam rolling…and i hate doing that so i use it frequently as part of my warm-up to get everything going faster. And my upper back warmed.

In that context i think they are very valuable as they do the job of several different exercises in one.[/quote]

Good post. My mobility isn’t that great in hips and ankles. This sounds like a great way to work on that while also warming up for the squat. How heavy would you go on these as a general squat warmup?
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As far as using them as a warm up, i believe very strongly that if you already know you have some borderline mobility issues you ahould foam roll and stretch the tight areas first (and in that order). Typical tight areas are ankles/calves, t-spine extension, and piriformis/glutes.

If your mobility is already pretty solid then i would just jump straight into them after some basic quick foam rolling.

If you have never done them before (properly, I mean) it is enough to do the empty bar because they’ll surprise you, particularly the requirement for t-spine extension. Medium/long term goals are sort of body weight dependent, but for all but the lightest people i think being able to OH squat 135 for reps is solid. you need enough weight on there to fire up the stabilizers as you get stronger, but if your goal is a big back squat not a huge need to go beyond a plate.

On the other hand i completely believe the ability to do decent weight on these really pust meat on your upper back and traps, so if you want to bring up your upper back AND you can already do a proper OH squat cleanly, i would do a real light warm-up on squat days but go heavier on your back day–if you have one of course. Try a complex: oh squat for 6 reps, high pull, row. If you are truly sadistic on your back accessory work, finish each round of the complex with a high cable cross for your back/rear delts. Jay Cutler soes this in one of his videos and it is maybe the only thing I’ve ever seen him do that i ended up liking. It’s basically using a cable stack for a pull-apart instead of a band, but using the high crossover while kneeling down between the stack, chest super duper high to the ceiling. Do that for 12 reps.

If you can’t do a snatch grip high pull properly you can do the complex: ohs, oh shrugs, row. Or ohs, row, regular shrugs with a hold.

Of course i feel like they are great standalone on back days as well, no reall need for a complex. And again if you just want to use them as a squat warm-up i would just to the bar until thats solid and pretty looking, and then gradually work up to 135. No need to do more, and that’s a long term goal, not short term. I don’t like using percentages but if i was pressed i would say ~30% of your back squat, looking clean and deep, for 5/6 reps, and topping out at 135.

I think some folks missed my point. I didn’t mean to intend to train the OHS for huge numbers and I agree this likely would be waste of time.

Kmcnyc’s post is what I am talking about. Using the movement as tool from your toolbox to evaluate your condition and also to warm up or to even train and improve mobility.

Strength student I got one question. This may seem ignorant but I’m not a huge follower of Olympic lifting. But aren’t you essentially doing an OHS every time you snatch? This would certainly devalue the movement for people doing OL.

[quote]Sutebun wrote:
I think some folks missed my point. I didn’t mean to intend to train the OHS for huge numbers and I agree this likely would be waste of time.

Kmcnyc’s post is what I am talking about. Using the movement as tool from your toolbox to evaluate your condition and also to warm up or to even train and improve mobility.

Strength student I got one question. This may seem ignorant but I’m not a huge follower of Olympic lifting. But aren’t you essentially doing an OHS every time you snatch? This would certainly devalue the movement for people doing OL.[/quote]

Precisely. You summed up the thoughts of every WL coach I have ever met. Why OHS when you could just snatch? In the circles I am involved in, all work for the classic lifts is done as a full movement. If you snatch, it’s a full snatch, if you clean, it’s a full clean. OHS and front squat are performed EVERY time a classic lift is performed, so there isn’t much need for weightlifters to train those movements. The squat strengthens the legs plenty, and training the classic lifts takes care of the specific preparation (i.e. OHS and FS).