T Nation

Let's Compare Cultures


#1

Please be aware that i'm speaking very globally here.

All right. Here goes. Since arriving in America in 86 i noticed alot of things. I have not been shaped by the American system so my view point is a little different and i think i see things for what they are. At least i hope im not delusional.

Let's talk about the various immigrant groups entering the USA for a while now.

  1. Indians - That country has a long long history of oppression and domination by the ruling class. The Poverty is astounding and the British colonialism did a number on those people including wholesale slaughter. They are dark skinned, speak funny and regarded as unclean and smelly. That's the Indian stereotype. There is certainly enough about them to have the average racist of any race dislike them.

AND YET

I see them being VERY successful in America. Alot of Indians even in their 40's will start a university here. They work very hard, take chances and start alot of businesses. So they try to move up on the educational and business front. They don't bitch, just stay quiet and work hard. Funny how despite the fierce "keep minorities down" racism, the indian immigrants are being very successful.

The Asians are the same group. Very successful. No time to be involved in stupid racial crap. They work hard, educate and also start businesses. Hard work is the common theme here. Noone can argue with the success of those minority groups.

The reason they are successful is because they did not grow up here in the USA. they were not PUMPED full of shit about them being marginalized and that allowed them to keep a mind set free of limitations. So their success is apparent, despite their awareness that there IS racism against them. It rolls of their backs.

African black men also come here and can move up very quickly. They also value education and hard work. African black people incidentally hate American Black People. Why? they feel they are lazy and do nothing but bitch about the white man. The Africans don't. Why? They didn't grow up in the USA.

The USA has a long history of keeping the Black man down. I feel the latest and most effective method recently is constantly reminding about racism, constantly reminding it still exists, constantly reminding how blacks are marginalized, not educated, coming from single parent houses etc etc... Consider a black kid growing up and watching that.

When his little mind is still shaping and developing and getting it's first impression of the world. That's when he gets hit with, You're black, everyone hates you and going anywhere in life will be fraught with closed doors.

The first time he will see a white man, mistrust and a separation of races is initiated.

I've had a few black guys tell me how they felt about white people when they were kids. They told me about their hatred of white people that has stayed with them for life now, why? Because they watched Kunta Kinte on Roots. So the historical education enlightened them to hate.

For Black people to be helped and to be pulled up, some things IMO are best forgotten and relegated to obscurity. Of course the paradox is that we feel that if we don't learn history we'll repeat it. I feel that in certain instances it can also keep you living IN History and preventing you from moving forward.

The current system only serves to perpetuate the current status. Do you agree? Do you see it? Or am i off the wall?

Im all for a clean slate. That's why we came to USA. Everyone starts off equal.


#2

Bad Boy Berlusconiâ??s Bacchanals

The New York Times just prudishly denounced Italyâ??s fun-loving prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, as “an aging Lothario.” Thatâ??s the same newspaper that applauded President George Bushâ??s trumped-up war against Iraq that left up to one million dead and four million refugees.

So what did the wicked Berlusconi do? Romping and frolicking with numerous young women and having one hell of a good time. Itâ??s the kind of behavior that infuriates many women, but leaves men filled with envy and admiration.

The left wing media in Italy is in a frenzy over Berlusconiâ??s nocturnal escapades with a string of gorgeous young ladies.

Unable to defeat him at the polls, the left has declared jihad on Berlusconiâ??s sex life.

In best Italian style, Berlusconi shrugs, “I am not a saint.”

Certainly not, but he has been Italyâ??s best prime minister in memory.

A former cruise ship singer, Berlusconi owns a big chunk of Italyâ??s business and media. Heâ??s been accused of all sorts of financial misdoings, but so far has defeated every attempt by leftwing Italian magistrates to convict him. Still, a nasty odor hangs over his administration. But then again, all politics and much of business in Italy are rotten with corruption.

The latest uproar came after Berlusconi spent a night of rapture with a beautiful woman. Unbeknown to him, she was a high-priced prostitute, paid by a favor-seeking businessman in a classic “honey-trap” so beloved of intelligence agencies. Or, the tryst may have been arranged by Berlusconiâ??s political enemies.

The lady in question made secret tapes of their night together that she sold and are now all over Italyâ??s slavering media.

Italyâ??s leftwing opposition, unable to defeat Berlusconi at the polls, thundered he had “weakened the image and authority of the Italian government!”

Please. Every Italian over three knows the do-nothing parliament in Rome is filled with crooks and buffoons. Berlusconi in bed is a better prime minister than the political dwarfs of Italyâ??s leftwing opposition and the neo-fascists on the far right.

Worldly Italians have so far laughed off Berlusconiâ??s antics. Italians accept differences between men and women, and menâ??s natural urges to roam with, “boys will be boys.”

A lady friend of mine says she wants to be reincarnated as a male Italian. Many Italian men live at home with their mothers until their thirties where they are spoiled, lovingly pampered, and treated like overgrown children.

Italian soldiers regularly receive care packages of goodies from home and send their laundry every weekend to mama. Italians may not be warlike, but they teach us to enjoy life and make the world a happier place.

Berlusconiâ??s approval rating dipped slightly from 50% to 48%, probably because some women felt sorry for his understandably embarrassed wife, who sued for divorce after Berlusconi was seen being overly attentive to an 18-year-old beauty straight out of a Boticelli painting, and bought her a $6,000 dollar piece of jewelry for her birthday.

Berlusconi even reportedly slipped away from the boredom of the recent G-8 summit in the Italian city of Lâ??Aquila he was hosting to return to Rome and party with some very attractive young ladies.

Iâ??m sure 99.5% of straight Italian men would give their last rigatoni to be in Berlusconiâ??s place. They are happy to have a prime minister who sings very well and makes Italian men proud. Even the Vatican made only gentle tut-tuts to Bad Boy Berlusconiâ??s bacchanals.

Let the Americans have their warlike commanders-in-chief and phony “family values.” Let the Britain have their unctuous prime ministers, and Russia its scowling Vlad Putin.

Or France itâ??s jogger-in-chief, Nicholas “Nike” Sarkozy, who collapsed on Sunday while foolishly running in extreme heat.

Italy has a lover-in-chief.

Berlusconi is Italyâ??s richest man and most successful modern leader. What else is left for him to do? Start wars? Invade France? Get another hair transplant? Become secretary general of the UN? He has had prostate cancer and, from what we hear on the sex tapes, has overcome the disease with gusto. Let him enjoy a good time in his twilight years.

But fun aside, Berlusconi may have gone too far even for Italians. Once men hit 60, the most sensitive organ in their body becomes their ego. Berlusconi is being rather reckless in a country where discretion is still favored. He risks tripping over his own public indiscretions and taken for an old fool. Dabbling with an 18-year-old is dangerous, even for him. Easygoing Italians may eventually say, “basta, Silvio!”

But hold all the hypocrisy from leftwing critics and dried up prudes about Berlusconiâ??s zesty love life. Relations with the opposite sex are no measure of political worth.

Adolf Hitler was faithful and attentive to his mistress, and eventually married her. The renowned British prime minister, David Lloyd George, was a notorious skirt-chaser. George Bush was a perfect family man. One has nothing to do with the other.

We owe a vote of thanks to Berlusconi for livening up our summer and providing some welcome diversion from bombs, bullets and bankruptcy. Bravo, Silvio.

There is a different culture for you.


#3

Was rightist Haider gay? Austria doesnâ??t care

Now that Austrian far-right leader Joerg Haider is dead, the German, British and U.S. press are eagerly spilling the beans on his â??secret double lifeâ??, saying that he had a male lover.

Just when you thought his story couldnâ??t get more dramatic â?? he died on Oct. 11 in a high-speed car crash while drunk â?? we now learn that Haider, who was married with two daughters, was not only a populist who polarised the public with remarks about Nazism and immigrants, but might have been gay too.

But wait a minute. Speculation about Haiderâ??s sexuality is not at all new, at least not in Austria. Here, his death has not really led to breathless speculation about his private life as it has elsewhere.

Why not?

Questions about Haiderâ??s sexuality had been asked in Austria since the 1990s, when the charismatic, folksy leader surrounded himself with a group of young and successful male followers, earning his entourage the nickname â??The Boys Posseâ??.

Far-right parties have never been especially women-friendly anyway. Haider never said he was gay, nor denied it and Austriansâ?? reaction to this is interesting. They donâ??t really care. Whether true or not, this speculation was largely politely ignored or deemed not newsworthy.

Overall the Austrian press abides by the unwritten rule that private lives should only be written about when made an issue by the politician themselves, or has an effect on public policy.

â??If Haider was gay or bi or whatever, so what?â?? writes Marco Schreuder, an openly gay member of the Vienna regional assembly. â??In our society, diverse sexual tendencies should be an accepted as a fact by enlightened, 21st century peopleâ?¦Drinkdriving is life-threatening. But visiting a gay bar doesnâ??t
threaten your own life or anyone elseâ??sâ??.

Haiderâ??s political parties â?? far-right Freedom before 2005 and later the splinter group Alliance for Austriaâ??s Future, did not pursue anti-gay policies.

Question marks over Haiderâ??s sexuality were not a political issue and are not new. Should we care nevertheless?

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2008/10/24/was-rightist-haider-gay-austria-doesnt-care/

We knew that he was at least part time gay and we did not care. More importantly, bringing that up in an attempt to smear him would have hurt his political opponents.

Another different culture.


#4

[quote]Gregus wrote:

The Asians are the same group. Very successful. No time to be involved in stupid racial crap. They work hard, educate and also start businesses. Hard work is the common theme here. Noone can argue with the success of those minority groups.

[/quote]

I’m sure what you’re saying has some grain of truth to it. I do want to point out though that Asians were often subject to the same harsh racism blacks were. True, there wasn’t widespread Asian slavery, but when Asians did start arriving on the west coast in mass around the civil war, they were treated just as badly. Whole towns would often round up the Asian population and drive them out into shanty towns. Then those towns would be attacked and the people killed. Jim Crow laws were applied to them, etc. etc. A hundred years ago Asians weren’t treated much better on the east coast either.

On a more general note I’ve always said that I’m very frustrated at the black communities attitude towards education. They rightly complain that they often do not have the same sorts of educational opportunities white families do, but yet you hardly hear black leaders complain that the black community as a whole doesn’t value education. This is in stark contrast to Asian communities, which generally extol education. As a society we have a ways to go before we ensure that every child has the same opportunity for education, but as a community blacks–and impoverished people in general–need to change their attitudes about education.


#5

What strikes me is the difference between my asian students and my black students. Now, of course, many of my black students come from public schools in middle-class areas (so the schools suck) but so do many of my Asian students. The asian students almost always are better.

I also have never had an asian girl in my classes get pregnant or get into trouble with drugs. I have had several of the black girls get pregnant or get kicked out for drugs. The boys are even worse, in similar regard.

This saddens me, because I know that the best way out of a lousy life is through education. I find myself making the black kids come after school for help and calling their parents if we have a big test coming up. But I fear I’m battling a culture here, a culture that is defeatist (not w/o reason, of course). So many black kids live with a single mom!!

Its going to take a long time until the American ideal can come anywhere close to reality.


#6

Yip.

You are colliding with American Politics my friend. Starting back in the 1950’s and continuing on to this day is a very leftist agenda for delegitimizing all public institutions. The idea is simple. In countries that had revolutions (think Russia 1917) the most major break was that the population decided that the government was no longer legitimate. This made it very easy to undermine all institutions (courts, parliament, police, military).

Therefore, the thinking was that to reform US society, the first step was to make all institutions illegitimate. This sort of worked. Publicly any defense of “the System” was immediately and loudly dismissed as supporting its problems. This has rendered any serious political discussion in the US impossible.

It has been pointed out (by Shelby Steele – read his stuff, it’s great) that the politics of delegitimizing was countered by the rise of both politically correct thinking and various affirmative action programs. In essence these are bureaucratic remedies. If the government wants to to something, it must phrase it in terms of its positive impact on minorities and the oppressed.

Monies are set aside for social justice and then life goes on. This gives the simply bizarre public spectacle of politicians running their own government into the ground as they get pork barrel programs passed.

Also, real job security comes to the Jesse Jackson’s of the world whose job now is to denounce everything as racist. Good example was the so-called riots after the Rodney King verdict. It was reported by Black pundits (such as Jackson) that all the rioting was due to injustice, etc. Actually, the demographics were that most of the rioters were Hispanic gangs that systematically looted Black businesses – all while the cops were told to hold back.

Many Blacks were outraged that the police would do nothing on their behalf to protect them. That fact only managed to come out well after the events of the day. But here is the pattern: Conventional reporting wisdom in the media is that all Blacks are poor crack addicts who have a such psychological scarring from years of oppression that really anything they do is a result of this.

That seels papers pretty well. We are to treat Blacks as irreparably damaged and forgive any excess. Black pundits feed this for personal gain and power while the real losers is the Black community whose careerist leaders don’t care about them.

Now in reality, a lot of the supposed racism that permeates the US is just not there. Identity politics really are a hold-over from the 1920’s but have managed to rehabilitate themselves so you are progressive if you support them. Conservatives (who outside of the US are actually considered liberals) are now considered backwards for supporting integration and a de-escalation of racial tensions.

Leftists (who are not welcomed in places like Poland or Hungary for how miserable their programs failed) push hard for segregation (called multi-culturalism) and special case laws. Class warfare has morphed into identity politics here since we really never had classes to start with in Marx’s sense of the word.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj


#7

[quote]orion wrote:
Bad Boy Berlusconiâ??s Bacchanals

The New York Times just prudishly denounced Italyâ??s fun-loving prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, as “an aging Lothario.” Thatâ??s the same newspaper that applauded President George Bushâ??s trumped-up war against Iraq that left up to one million dead and four million refugees.

So what did the wicked Berlusconi do? Romping and frolicking with numerous young women and having one hell of a good time. Itâ??s the kind of behavior that infuriates many women, but leaves men filled with envy and admiration.

The left wing media in Italy is in a frenzy over Berlusconiâ??s nocturnal escapades with a string of gorgeous young ladies.

Unable to defeat him at the polls, the left has declared jihad on Berlusconiâ??s sex life.

In best Italian style, Berlusconi shrugs, “I am not a saint.”

Certainly not, but he has been Italyâ??s best prime minister in memory.

A former cruise ship singer, Berlusconi owns a big chunk of Italyâ??s business and media. Heâ??s been accused of all sorts of financial misdoings, but so far has defeated every attempt by leftwing Italian magistrates to convict him. Still, a nasty odor hangs over his administration. But then again, all politics and much of business in Italy are rotten with corruption.

The latest uproar came after Berlusconi spent a night of rapture with a beautiful woman. Unbeknown to him, she was a high-priced prostitute, paid by a favor-seeking businessman in a classic “honey-trap” so beloved of intelligence agencies. Or, the tryst may have been arranged by Berlusconiâ??s political enemies.

The lady in question made secret tapes of their night together that she sold and are now all over Italyâ??s slavering media.

Italyâ??s leftwing opposition, unable to defeat Berlusconi at the polls, thundered he had “weakened the image and authority of the Italian government!”

Please. Every Italian over three knows the do-nothing parliament in Rome is filled with crooks and buffoons. Berlusconi in bed is a better prime minister than the political dwarfs of Italyâ??s leftwing opposition and the neo-fascists on the far right.

Worldly Italians have so far laughed off Berlusconiâ??s antics. Italians accept differences between men and women, and menâ??s natural urges to roam with, “boys will be boys.”

A lady friend of mine says she wants to be reincarnated as a male Italian. Many Italian men live at home with their mothers until their thirties where they are spoiled, lovingly pampered, and treated like overgrown children.

Italian soldiers regularly receive care packages of goodies from home and send their laundry every weekend to mama. Italians may not be warlike, but they teach us to enjoy life and make the world a happier place.

Berlusconiâ??s approval rating dipped slightly from 50% to 48%, probably because some women felt sorry for his understandably embarrassed wife, who sued for divorce after Berlusconi was seen being overly attentive to an 18-year-old beauty straight out of a Boticelli painting, and bought her a $6,000 dollar piece of jewelry for her birthday.

Berlusconi even reportedly slipped away from the boredom of the recent G-8 summit in the Italian city of Lâ??Aquila he was hosting to return to Rome and party with some very attractive young ladies.

Iâ??m sure 99.5% of straight Italian men would give their last rigatoni to be in Berlusconiâ??s place. They are happy to have a prime minister who sings very well and makes Italian men proud. Even the Vatican made only gentle tut-tuts to Bad Boy Berlusconiâ??s bacchanals.

Let the Americans have their warlike commanders-in-chief and phony “family values.” Let the Britain have their unctuous prime ministers, and Russia its scowling Vlad Putin.

Or France itâ??s jogger-in-chief, Nicholas “Nike” Sarkozy, who collapsed on Sunday while foolishly running in extreme heat.

Italy has a lover-in-chief.

Berlusconi is Italyâ??s richest man and most successful modern leader. What else is left for him to do? Start wars? Invade France? Get another hair transplant? Become secretary general of the UN? He has had prostate cancer and, from what we hear on the sex tapes, has overcome the disease with gusto. Let him enjoy a good time in his twilight years.

But fun aside, Berlusconi may have gone too far even for Italians. Once men hit 60, the most sensitive organ in their body becomes their ego. Berlusconi is being rather reckless in a country where discretion is still favored. He risks tripping over his own public indiscretions and taken for an old fool. Dabbling with an 18-year-old is dangerous, even for him. Easygoing Italians may eventually say, “basta, Silvio!”

But hold all the hypocrisy from leftwing critics and dried up prudes about Berlusconiâ??s zesty love life. Relations with the opposite sex are no measure of political worth.

Adolf Hitler was faithful and attentive to his mistress, and eventually married her. The renowned British prime minister, David Lloyd George, was a notorious skirt-chaser. George Bush was a perfect family man. One has nothing to do with the other.

We owe a vote of thanks to Berlusconi for livening up our summer and providing some welcome diversion from bombs, bullets and bankruptcy. Bravo, Silvio.

There is a different culture for you.

[/quote]

You do realize that you are speaking about a government that changes power about as often as I change parking spaces.

Literally, the government is constantly changing with no consistency at all. Last October, I spoke with my uncle who lives in Rome, and he told me how Berlusconi was the George Bush of Europe, and how the Italian people hated him. In fact, I was there during our '08 elections, and there were Obama posters all over Italy. The basic complaints of the Italian people were similar to those of the American people, since Berlusconi was riding Bush’s sack for years, which also made him very rich. From cab drivers, waiters, police officers, and local patrons, no one likes Berlusconi for the same reason people here hated Bush.


#8

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Literally, the government is constantly changing with no consistency at all. Last October, I spoke with my uncle who lives in Rome, and he told me how Berlusconi was the George Bush of Europe, and how the Italian people hated him. In fact, I was there during our '08 elections, and there were Obama posters all over Italy. The basic complaints of the Italian people were similar to those of the American people, since Berlusconi was riding Bush’s sack for years, which also made him very rich. From cab drivers, waiters, police officers, and local patrons, no one likes Berlusconi for the same reason people here hated Bush. [/quote]

Mebbe, but that was kind of the point.

They could not care less who he fucks and how corrupt he is.

I find that refreshing.

edit:

I´d like to eloborate on that a little bit.

A horndog who embezzles a few million and corrupts the Italian justice system…

Sorry, just kidding, just an embezzling horndog.

So beautiful in his innocence.

Compare that to a born again Christian who would never cheats on his wife, works out religiously and fucks up on an ginormous scale because Jesus told him too.

Or a neo-Marxist community organizer.

Um, Berlusconi 2012?


#9

Their new immigration policy is unbelievable, if you are illegal, you are out, period. You get fined, deported, and if you want to fight your case, you do it from Liberia. Citizens are encouraged to notify authorities about illegals so they can deport them.


#10

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Their new immigration policy is unbelievable, if you are illegal, you are out, period. You get fined, deported, and if you want to fight your case, you do it from Liberia. Citizens are encouraged to notify authorities about illegals so they can deport them. [/quote]

God forbid a nation enforces its laws. What should they do? Give each illegal a Ferrari, Tuscan villa, and ownership of a soccer team?


#11

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Their new immigration policy is unbelievable, if you are illegal, you are out, period. You get fined, deported, and if you want to fight your case, you do it from Liberia. Citizens are encouraged to notify authorities about illegals so they can deport them.

God forbid a nation enforces its laws. What should they do? Give each illegal a Ferrari, Tuscan villa, and ownership of a soccer team? [/quote]

I agree with you! I think it’s great, I wish they would do it here. I think our economy would significantly improve if the illegal immigration issue was enforced properly.


#12

[quote]Gregus wrote:

The USA has a long history of keeping the Black man down. I feel the latest and most effective method recently is constantly reminding about racism, constantly reminding it still exists, constantly reminding how blacks are marginalized, not educated, coming from single parent houses etc etc…

[/quote]

Today, it is the liberals and Negro leaders who keep the Black man down through the application of enforced discrimination (ie racial quotas).


#13

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

I agree with you! I think it’s great, I wish they would do it here. I think our economy would significantly improve if the illegal immigration issue was enforced properly.[/quote]

Improving an economy by removing cheap labor?

Excellent!