T Nation

Letro and Caber

28,167-170 5.9, 10%bf, training since 16, wrestled, sprinter in track 400 mainly, I work out for pure vanity not competition or for a job. I would like to put on 15-20bls and keep it and it be solid gains, so I am doing this bulking cycle then over the summer i will do a test cyp, tren e, winny and clen cycle. I dont want to look too big or meat headish since in my field AS use is looked down upon since I counsel, diagnose and treat patients all day.
That being said…

What is a good dose of caber and letro while on 400mg of deca and 400mg of test cyp and 30ml of Dbol?

1-5 30ml DBOL
3-12 400mg deca and test cyp
16-20 nolv 40/40/20/20ed

I am very senitive to gyno when on test and was as well when on tren. So I assume I would be with deca too. I am also on propecia… I have read letro is AS dose dependent and .25mgx2 wk is a good place to start, caber I read 1.5mcg eod… Should I them both at week 1 and use them all the way to week 20 or start them later, or end them at week 12 ? what is eveyone elses thoughts???

I know this is a deca hateing site but I have used Eq and not liked it… the only AS I have found worth anything is test cyp and tren E, Sust I didnt like, Eq, didnt like, prop just make my ass swell up like a balloon and it hurt all the time, as well as the sust. So that being said this is my first run with deca and d-bol and I looking forward to it…

No need to mention that you think the Dbol should be at the end… I am well aware that in the mid of my cycle I may feel I am loosing gains and strength because the other AS are not as strong as D-Bol but when I start noticing my face isnt shaped like a moon and I am my body is not bloated I will realize that the test and deca are hardening me out comapred to the D-bol and I will look and feel better at then end…

You bumped your other thread but no one responded so you started a new one?

Were you the kid in class that jumped up and down when the teacher didn’t call on you even though you knew the answer?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You bumped your other thread but no one responded so you started a new one?

Were you the kid in class that jumped up and down when the teacher didn’t call on you even though you knew the answer? [/quote]

Yes I was… but in my last post many people said they would comment on this later or say they didn’t have time to post right now and then i started looking at other posts on deca/Dbol/test and people would just say you need more research or just crack jokes… So while I did research on this site I read more about how people need to do more research then I actually did reading quality information. Althoug Bonez you have given me some good feedback and I thank you for that… So why not everybody else give some quality info so people have something to read when they do a search on this site… Just a thought…

[quote]stillearning wrote:
28,167-170 5.9, 10%bf, training since 16, wrestled, sprinter in track 400 mainly, I work out for pure vanity not competition or for a job. I would like to put on 15-20bls and keep it and it be solid gains, so I am doing this bulking cycle then over the summer i will do a test cyp, tren e, winny and clen cycle. I dont want to look too big or meat headish since in my field AS use is looked down upon since I counsel, diagnose and treat patients all day.
That being said…
[/quote]
If you counsel people, that saddens me. You are incapable of articulating yourself adequately, or you are just completely ignorant. You are 170lbs at ten percent. That is what 153bs of lean mass? Woo. I am 5’9 210 pounds and I don’t in the SLIGHTEST look “meatheadish” maybe if you talk like an adult they wont think you are a “meathead.”

If you have done ANY research you would have known that letro dose is going to be dependent upon your personal make-up. Just for an idea though, I use .25mg/day when on cycle, FOR ME that was about right (confirmed by blood tests). I believe the dose of caber is half a mg or so every couple days (not positive).

No this site recognizes that nandrolone as a compound is substantially less effective than trenbolone or test and has more side effects than comparable drugs like masteron or primabolan at a higher dose.

[quote]
No need to mention that you think the Dbol should be at the end… I am well aware that in the mid of my cycle I may feel I am loosing gains and strength because the other AS are not as strong as D-Bol but when I start noticing my face isnt shaped like a moon and I am my body is not bloated I will realize that the test and deca are hardening me out comapred to the D-bol and I will look and feel better at then end…[/quote]
Again, I believe you are 100% lying about everything you have stated, I bet you are around 18. You at least talk like a teenager, that is for sure. PS your face is like a moon because you are not controlling estrogen AND/OR you are fat and little. The deca won’t stop you from being fat and little on your own, its not a miracle worker. Figure out how to train and eat correctly and you will notice exponentially better results.

wks 1-100 Consistent diet and lifting
wks 101-2000 Supplements
wks 200-209 AAS cycle

Best of luck.

lets see, your losing your hair, sensitive to gyno, are skinny and underweight. Don’t you think maybe steroids aren’t the best decision for you right now?

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
stillearning wrote:
28,167-170 5.9, 10%bf, training since 16, wrestled, sprinter in track 400 mainly, I work out for pure vanity not competition or for a job. I would like to put on 15-20bls and keep it and it be solid gains, so I am doing this bulking cycle then over the summer i will do a test cyp, tren e, winny and clen cycle. I dont want to look too big or meat headish since in my field AS use is looked down upon since I counsel, diagnose and treat patients all day.
That being said…

If you counsel people, that saddens me. You are incapable of articulating yourself adequately, or you are just completely ignorant. You are 170lbs at ten percent. That is what 153bs of lean mass? Woo. I am 5’9 210 pounds and I don’t in the SLIGHTEST look “meatheadish” maybe if you talk like an adult they wont think you are a “meathead.”

What is a good dose of caber and letro while on 400mg of deca and 400mg of test cyp and 30ml of Dbol?

If you have done ANY research you would have known that letro dose is going to be dependent upon your personal make-up. Just for an idea though, I use .25mg/day when on cycle, FOR ME that was about right (confirmed by blood tests). I believe the dose of caber is half a mg or so every couple days (not positive).

1-5 30ml DBOL
3-12 400mg deca and test cyp
16-20 nolv 40/40/20/20ed

I am very senitive to gyno when on test and was as well when on tren. So I assume I would be with deca too. I am also on propecia… I have read letro is AS dose dependent and .25mgx2 wk is a good place to start, caber I read 1.5mcg eod… Should I them both at week 1 and use them all the way to week 20 or start them later, or end them at week 12 ? what is eveyone elses thoughts???

I know this is a deca hateing site but I have used Eq and not liked it… the only AS I have found worth anything is test cyp and tren E, Sust I didnt like, Eq, didnt like, prop just make my ass swell up like a balloon and it hurt all the time, as well as the sust. So that being said this is my first run with deca and d-bol and I looking forward to it…

No this site recognizes that nandrolone as a compound is substantially less effective than trenbolone or test and has more side effects than comparable drugs like masteron or primabolan at a higher dose.

No need to mention that you think the Dbol should be at the end… I am well aware that in the mid of my cycle I may feel I am loosing gains and strength because the other AS are not as strong as D-Bol but when I start noticing my face isnt shaped like a moon and I am my body is not bloated I will realize that the test and deca are hardening me out comapred to the D-bol and I will look and feel better at then end…
Again, I believe you are 100% lying about everything you have stated, I bet you are around 18. You at least talk like a teenager, that is for sure. PS your face is like a moon because you are not controlling estrogen AND/OR you are fat and little. The deca won’t stop you from being fat and little on your own, its not a miracle worker. Figure out how to train and eat correctly and you will notice exponentially better results.

wks 1-100 Consistent diet and lifting
wks 101-2000 Supplements
wks 200-209 AAS cycle

Best of luck.[/quote]

Apparently we got off on the wrong foot… I can understand some of your discontent for my last post. I can come off a little abrasive when I do not get the answers that I want; especially when I have attempted to fulfill what has been requested of me. I do apologize if you took my comments as insulting or condescending. The term “meathead” I admit is a little derogatory and in a bodybuilding forum the use of such a term might be considered by some to be offensive.

I have grown very frustrated with this board, I have been a member of this board since 2006 and over the past 3 years I have seen it slowly transcend from a board eager to answer questions and help new comers to a board that is has taken the name “T-Nation unapologetic muscle building elitists” literally. Some even looking forward to “flame” or put down new comers who have less knowledge and experience than themselves.

I understand the importance of doing research on your own but that fact is there is much misinformation out there and in doing such research I have found a lot contradicting info on this site alone. Now I know this is not an exact science, “Hell it is steroids we are talking about here… they are illegal in most countries and look down upon for their use in professional sports due to the media and public education system”…

Many of the cycles I posted here on this board this week were exact cut and paste posts from doing research on this very site. With all that being said it is up to experienced users to advise future users on proper use. Not to tell them to look up old posts of you telling another person to do research… I must of seen 20 posts bashing someone for every 1 post I saw giving productive feedback

To all those who have shared their knowledge thus contributing to the safety and effectiveness of this board… Thank you (you know who you are)

I’m at the back end of 28 and quickly approaching 30 and will not accept getting older so I workout and use AS because it keeps me looking good and feeling good and with the finastride I have had no hair loss. I just want to make sure I am using them best way possible… thanks for your time and comments… I think I’m done with this board…

[quote]stillearning wrote:
I have grown very frustrated with this board, I have been a member of this board since 2006 and over the past 3 years I have seen it slowly transcend from a board eager to answer questions and help new comers to a board that is has taken the name “T-Nation unapologetic muscle building elitists” literally. Some even looking forward to “flame” or put down new comers who have less knowledge and experience than themselves.

[/quote]

What. The. Fuck. Ever.

You come out of the blue and start posting and just because you happened to sign up 3 years ago and forget about T-Nation (because it’s pretty damned clear that is what actually happened), you are suddenly an authority on the history of this board?

Fuck off. And don’t expect any help from me from now on.

If you didn’t get it before, it’s because of your snotty little shit attitude and your casually thrown about derogations like “meat-head” for anyone who happens to be bigger or have achieved more than you have.

Again: Fuck off.

If you cannot see what a snide, insecure, condescending, ill-informed little shit you come off as then there is certainly not going to be any helping you in the first place. See you again in 2012. I’m sure you’ll still be the same size and nowhere near in danger of becoming a “meat-head” than you are now.

And for the record, this particular forum, particularly at this moment in time, is probably the most helpful one on this entire site aside from, perhaps, Thib’s forum. I’m sure there are quite a number of guys who can attest to having come here actually having prepared themselves for what is required (and a whole lot who hadn’t) who received advice that saved them possibly years of misery and trouble, and many who probably launched themselves forward to levels they had never expected they would achieve.

[quote]stillearning wrote:
28,167-170 5.9, 10%bf[/quote]

That’s all I needed to know. You don’t need gear. You need to learn how to eat. Anyone can (and yes, I mean anyone!) get to 200# through diet alone. As you have not, it is obvious that you are unprepared to use. So don’t.

[quote]skullbonz90 wrote:
That’s all I needed to know. You don’t need gear. You need to learn how to eat. Anyone can (and yes, I mean anyone!) get to 200# through diet alone. As you have not, it is obvious that you are unprepared to use. So don’t.[/quote]

You really think so? Supposedly Frank Zane was 5’9" and around 200 pounds (actually, I think he was under). You really think anyone can get like that without gear?

You guyz on this board are ridiculous.

stilllearning: i can’t advise u on the letro, but i use caber recreationally, and dose it at 0.5mg EOD/E3D, its enough to take the prolactin to virtually zero and i fuck like a champ - ALL DAY :slight_smile: x. So 1.5mcg seems crazy small to me. What is that? 0.0015mg? I reckon for a drug that notoriously causes prolactin sides, you’ll need a lot more.

Sorry i can’t advice u furthre

[quote]ubergreg wrote:
skullbonz90 wrote:
That’s all I needed to know. You don’t need gear. You need to learn how to eat. Anyone can (and yes, I mean anyone!) get to 200# through diet alone. As you have not, it is obvious that you are unprepared to use. So don’t.

You really think so? Supposedly Frank Zane was 5’9" and around 200 pounds (actually, I think he was under). You really think anyone can get like that without gear?[/quote]

This is a joke right?

Please take your trolling elsewhere.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
ubergreg wrote:
skullbonz90 wrote:
That’s all I needed to know. You don’t need gear. You need to learn how to eat. Anyone can (and yes, I mean anyone!) get to 200# through diet alone. As you have not, it is obvious that you are unprepared to use. So don’t.

You really think so? Supposedly Frank Zane was 5’9" and around 200 pounds (actually, I think he was under). You really think anyone can get like that without gear?

This is a joke right?

Please take your trolling elsewhere. [/quote]

How am I trolling? He might have been bigger in that particular photo, but I am pretty sure he won Mr. Olympia while weighing in under 200 pounds. I just think a lot of people underestimate how big 200 pounds can be when you have a low bodyfat %. And I definitely do not think just “anyone” can reach 200 pounds with low bodyfat without gear.

Nor does everyone want to. Some people don’t want to use these drugs like “bodybuilders” trying to maximise SIZE to be the biggest possible beast of beats POSSIBLE.

[quote]ubergreg wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
ubergreg wrote:
skullbonz90 wrote:
That’s all I needed to know. You don’t need gear. You need to learn how to eat. Anyone can (and yes, I mean anyone!) get to 200# through diet alone. As you have not, it is obvious that you are unprepared to use. So don’t.

You really think so? Supposedly Frank Zane was 5’9" and around 200 pounds (actually, I think he was under). You really think anyone can get like that without gear?

This is a joke right?

Please take your trolling elsewhere.

How am I trolling? He might have been bigger in that particular photo, but I am pretty sure he won Mr. Olympia while weighing in under 200 pounds. I just think a lot of people underestimate how big 200 pounds can be when you have a low bodyfat %. And I definitely do not think just “anyone” can reach 200 pounds with low bodyfat without gear.

[/quote]

Fine, since you claim that post wasn’t a joke.

Detroitlions never said anything about competition shape. So that automatically disqualifies using pics of a Mr. O. But that’s just being extra picky.

You also sound foolish when you post a picture of Frank Zane and then ask ‘if it’s possible to look like that’ without AAS. Of course it’s not fucking possible. He’s Mr Olympia for christs sake. Not only is he Mr Olympia but he probably has the best genetics EVER (with a possible exception being D. Jackson) for aesthetics. No amount of steroids or nutrition or training will give someone the best genetics in the world.

That’s still not even the main point. By today’s standards (bodybuilding standards) Frank Zane isn’t even particularly impressive. There are guys doing tested shows coming in bigger and better conditioned than he ever was. So to say that someone needs AAS to reach 200 pounds at average height and 10% bodyfat is crazy.

And of course not EVERYONE can do it. Some people just have garbage genes for building muscle or for staying lean or both. If someone wants to use AAS to compensate for that, fine. But the large majority of average height men can eat and lift until they hit 215-220 then diet off some fat and have a very respectable physique.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You also sound foolish when you post a picture of Frank Zane and then ask ‘if it’s possible to look like that’ without AAS. Of course it’s not fucking possible. He’s Mr Olympia for christs sake. Not only is he Mr Olympia but he probably has the best genetics EVER (with a possible exception being D. Jackson) for aesthetics. No amount of steroids or nutrition or training will give someone the best genetics in the world.
[/quote]

My question was rhetorical. Of course I know that Frank Zane needed AAS to achieve that physique as would almost anyone else without super-elite genetics. I was responding to skullbonz90 who said that “anyone… (and yes, I mean anyone!)” can reach 200 pounds without gear. Like I said in my last post, I think that unless you’re pretty tall (Zane was about average height, 5’9" I think) 200 pounds can be pretty big and very un-attainable without gear unless you’re a fatass. Frank Zane not only had one of the best physiques of all Mr. Olympia winners in my opinion, but he is a good example of what a solid 180-200 pounds can look like on someone with average height - pretty damn big.

Oh, and a lot of the “natural” guys, I doubt were always so. Having no detectable AAS in your system at the time of testing, and having never touched any AAS at all are two entirely different things.

[quote]ubergreg wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
You also sound foolish when you post a picture of Frank Zane and then ask ‘if it’s possible to look like that’ without AAS. Of course it’s not fucking possible. He’s Mr Olympia for christs sake.

Not only is he Mr Olympia but he probably has the best genetics EVER (with a possible exception being D. Jackson) for aesthetics. No amount of steroids or nutrition or training will give someone the best genetics in the world.

My question was rhetorical. Of course I know that Frank Zane needed AAS to achieve that physique as would almost anyone else without super-elite genetics. I was responding to skullbonz90 who said that “anyone… (and yes, I mean anyone!)” can reach 200 pounds without gear.

Like I said in my last post, I think that unless you’re pretty tall (Zane was about average height, 5’9" I think) 200 pounds can be pretty big and very un-attainable without gear unless you’re a fatass.

Frank Zane not only had one of the best physiques of all Mr. Olympia winners in my opinion, but he is a good example of what a solid 180-200 pounds can look like on someone with average height - pretty damn big.

Oh, and a lot of the “natural” guys, I doubt were always so. Having no detectable AAS in your system at the time of testing, and having never touched any AAS at all are two entirely different things.[/quote]

Don’t patronize me about the drug use in tested shows. I said ‘tested’ for a reason, never used the word natural. I know how things work, thanks.

You completely missed my point about it not being possible to look like Zane without AAS. I didn’t say someone can’t have the same stats (height, weight, bf%), I said no one else can look like him. Meaning plenty of people can be 5’9 210+ lbs at 12% bodyfat (which is probably close to Zane’s offseason numbers in the middle of his career) but no one will look as good.

You are using Frank Zane’s perfect genetic shape and structure as a baseline when making your claim that 200lbs @ ~10% is not attainable by a man of average height. It’s a rediculous comparison. He is as far from the ideal baseline as you can find.

Go make your claim in the Bodybuilding forum that “AAS is needed for the large majority to reach 200lbs” and see how fast you are laughed at. I can even post it on your behalf in the Tcell if you’d like a more mature response.

Frank Zane was the first ever figure competitor to win the Mr O. Little known fact.

[quote]ubergreg wrote:
Like I said in my last post, I think that unless you’re pretty tall (Zane was about average height, 5’9" I think) 200 pounds can be pretty big and very un-attainable without gear unless you’re a fatass. [/quote]

It sounds to me that you’re a skinny kid that hates those guys that actually get big through hard work and lots of food. Your attitude and beliefs are the reason you fail. 200 pounds is not big, especially at 10% BF. You hang around too many small dudes; which is why you think such a goal is unattainable.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
stillearning wrote:
I have grown very frustrated with this board, I have been a member of this board since 2006 and over the past 3 years I have seen it slowly transcend from a board eager to answer questions and help new comers to a board that is has taken the name “T-Nation unapologetic muscle building elitists” literally. Some even looking forward to “flame” or put down new comers who have less knowledge and experience than themselves.

What. The. Fuck. Ever.

You come out of the blue and start posting and just because you happened to sign up 3 years ago and forget about T-Nation (because it’s pretty damned clear that is what actually happened), you are suddenly an authority on the history of this board?

Fuck off. And don’t expect any help from me from now on.

If you didn’t get it before, it’s because of your snotty little shit attitude and your casually thrown about derogations like “meat-head” for anyone who happens to be bigger or have achieved more than you have.

Again: Fuck off.

If you cannot see what a snide, insecure, condescending, ill-informed little shit you come off as then there is certainly not going to be any helping you in the first place. See you again in 2012. I’m sure you’ll still be the same size and nowhere near in danger of becoming a “meat-head” than you are now.

And for the record, this particular forum, particularly at this moment in time, is probably the most helpful one on this entire site aside from, perhaps, Thib’s forum. I’m sure there are quite a number of guys who can attest to having come here actually having prepared themselves for what is required (and a whole lot who hadn’t) who received advice that saved them possibly years of misery and trouble, and many who probably launched themselves forward to levels they had never expected they would achieve.

[/quote]

You have an outstanding ability for satire Cortes. I don’t post on this part of the forum because I know not nearly enough, but I do enjoy following along for a good chuckle

Can’t come asking for help with an undertone of irreverence stillearning, no forum posters with half a brain are going to accept that.