Lethal Force Discussion

This is part of the problem. Society is starting to believe it’s okay to resist or attack. It’s not. I’ll never call it normal.

I’m dealing with juveniles who argue and yell at us. They’ve been taught that police are the enemy and we’re going to kill them.

You’re judging the outcome instead of the situation. The fact that the bad guy failed to kill the cop doesn’t make the situation any better.

As a cop, I can’t rely on good fortune. Murphy’s Law generally works against police.

Bingo.

Cop to guy matching description of armed robbery suspect: take your hands out of your pockets.

Suspect: runs while holding his waist band

Suspect gets hurt or killed and the media is outraged.

This isn’t hard, people.

This is a good discussion and thanks to 2JS for opening the talk.

Your comment is accurate. Before going federal, I was a street cop, narcotics and SWAT. I have been involved in 5 LEO shootings, one on patrol, 2 in narcotics and 3 in SWAT, plus, I have been sued 3 times for excessive force (always standard in any shooting) That is my personal experience.

to your comment: We were called to a housing project where a male had stabbed his girlfriend and then cut off one breast and threw it on the floor of the bedroom. He refused verbal commands to drop the knife and then tried to stab my back up. We ended up shooting him 17 times before he bled out. He was coked to the gills on PCP and meth. Hand to hand, non lethal force was useless in that situation. Two days later the headlines were “Police execute man by shooting him 17 times” . We were sued for excessive force. The fucking city settled out of court, may it look like we were wrong.

The point of this story for this thread is this: If you were not there, you really don’t know what really happened. Body cameras are great, but, they don’t capture everything.

Good discussion.

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First, totally agree that civilians should comply and show respect during police encounters. Being a white male who dresses well and grew up around off duty cops helps a lot, but the very large reason I’ve always been treated well, even when in the 100% wrong, is because I follow instructions quickly and don’t give them a hard time for doing their job. Generally the people resisting arrest violently are not great people, and deserve a bit of a beatdown.

Tgat said, how much responsibility falls on the civilian to deescalate and avoid violence, vs how much should fall on a cops shoulders to avoid violence?

Should a cops burden of proof be higher for deadly self defense than a civilians? Or lower? Or the same?

The burden is generally the same. The difference is that cops are supposed to pursue violent people.

Most people have the option of walking away during a verbal confrontation.

Bad guy: f you! Mind your own business!
Average citizen: okay…(walks away, probably calls 911)
Cop: Can’t do that. Someone called and I have a duty to investigate a possible crime.

That alone changes all the rules.

But if the citizen chooses to stand their ground then they can use force to defend themselves or another, too. The elements just have to be there.

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I’m not sure how familiar you are with cuffing an arrestee, but how much time do you think there is to de-escalate at contact distance? You’re on top of a guy; he pulls a knife and cuts you…how much time do you think you have before being cut again? Again, you’re on top of the guy…so he’s not going to be turning and running away.

Never had to cuff anyone. My question/thought comes from my wrestling background where it’s pretty easy and doable to create space and get away from a guy when in top position. Of course letting the bad guy free is only good for non firearm situations and introduces the issue of catching him again… Which is the primary purpose of police.

How many chances can you give someone trying to do you serious harm before using lethal force? Is the guy just trying to get away, or is his goal to hurt you? Is it safer to extend a Chase to give an opportunity to surrender or end it quick before others get hurt?

A whole helluva lot of factors play into the answers to that on a case by case basis. Tough gig for sure.

Of course, it’s very obvious that nobody REALLY thinks that in America. They wouldn’t be arguing and yelling if they did. Well, they’d only do it once.

Uhh…he just cut you with a knife. Not only is his goal to hurt you, but he has actually done it and left no reason to doubt that he will do it again.

Blockquote

As to extending a chase, I had a debate a number of years ago with friends about whether or not police in cars should actively pursue vehicle fleeing suspects. Sometimes the police vehicle itself gets in an accident, such as below:

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/police-cab-collision-that-badly-hurt-woman-child-was-second-crash-of-pursuit

I figure that if the police are completely given the red light, all hell is going to break loose around every liquor store and bank. The police should really be trying to last at least a fair bit in a chase.

Almost all major American police departments have a chase policy. Some are so strict, you cannot chase anything, some are more liberal and will allow “following aggressively” on major crimes and DUI’s going the wrong way. When in uniform, we were not allowed to chase unless it was an ongoing terrorist , active shooter , or someone transporting a biological or nuclear weapon.

Department administrations never really want to chase anything, too much civil liability. I am Federal now, and if I chase someone in a USG issued vehicle? It had better be a good reason, such as end of times shit.

Curious where you got the stat about a cop being killed every 58hrs?

FBI.gov says 106 officers died on duty in 2018, and 55 of those were felonious acts.

I always wonder what anyone’s deleted post was.

A stat quoted on PoliceOne.com. usually a very reliable website. The quote was January 2019 to present date.

I screwed up yesterday and posted my comments on this thread, that were intended for the Tactical Life thread.

Per FBI.gov, 30 have died feloniously and 29 accidentally as of Sept 3rd. Which is down significantly as compared to 2018.

I wonder if the cause of the decrease is better training, more awareness, dumb luck?

Numbers seem to swing year-to-year, which isn’t surprising given the unpredictable nature of what is being measured.

Take 9/11 for instance. 72 officers killed in a day. That’ll skew the stats.

The site I found that repeated the “every 58” hours statistic calls it a 10 year average. 2019 seems like a down year so far, which is great. 2018 had 158 deaths, which works out to one every 55 hours.

A difference in what is actually being measured seems to account for the disparity you see. The FBI is not including the category of “job-related illness” and other circumstantial causes of death. I don’t find this surprising, as the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting system tends to focus on crimes and specific circumstances (see below for criteria).

https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Causes-Law-Enforcement-Deaths-2009-2018.pdf

I suppose the takeaway is that if we ignore the same things the FBI ignores, then you can say that an officer is only killed once every 81 hours or so.

In 2018 odmp.org has 164 line of duty deaths. That’s about 1 every 54 hours. We aren’t looking at a variation between 1 every 2 days and 1 per month. It’s on the regular a LEO is going down on duty regardless if the cause assaultive, accidental, stressed health, etc. As a profession, we’ve been getting much better at wearing seat belts and armor, lifetime fitness choices, mental health and tactics. We need to get better and spread the word to those in regions that may not have the access to resources.

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Lethal Force information:

IS JUSTIFIED LETHAL FORCE REALLY JUSTIFIED?

This article will address the three phase breakdown of a deadly force encounter within a residence wherein at least one of the homeowners/residents has previously purchased a firearm for home protection.

let us lay the groundwork with an opening question. Do we legally and/or morally have the right to protect our property from theft or imminent destruction? In some states, the legal right does exist for us to involve a firearm in our quest to protect personal property. Does this mean we should?

Phase One. Purchasing a firearm for home defense and/or defense of one’s self and significant others does not necessarily translate to your willingness to use it in a deadly force confrontation. Realistically, prior to purchasing a firearm for this purpose, the question begs to be asked.

Do you have it within yourself to use a firearm to defend yourself in an encounter with an armed intruder?

Before you answer in the affirmative, be careful. You are about to encounter a set of physical and neurological conditions that will greatly affect your ability judge time, space, vision and auditory exclusion. This is collectively known as Tachypsychia which is a neurological condition that alters the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes referred to by martial arts instructors and self-defense experts as the Tachy Psyche Effect. For someone affected by Tachypsychia, time perceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation. What are the physical effects?

Also called the “fight or flight” response of the body to an event our mind considers life-threatening, Tachypsychia is believed to include numerous physical changes.

1) Adrenaline response

Upon being stimulated by fear or anger, the adrenal medulla may automatically produce the hormone epinephrine (aka adrenaline) directly into the blood stream. This can have various effects on various bodily systems, including:

Increased heart rate and blood pressure. It is common for a Tachypsychia subject’s pulse to rise to between 200 and 300 beats per minute (bpm). Increased heart rate (above 250 bpm) can cause fainting, and the body may adduct all limbs, adopting fetal position, in preparation for a coma.

Dilation of the bronchial passages, permitting higher absorption of oxygen.

Dilated pupils to allow more light to enter, and visual exclusion—tunnel vision—occurs, allowing greater focus but resulting in the loss of peripheral vision.

Release of glucose into the bloodstream, generating extra energy by raising the blood sugar level.

It is common for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or sensitivity. It is also common for individuals to experience an increased pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased fine motor skills, decreased communication skills, or decreased coordination.

Upon being stimulated by fear or anger, the adrenal medulla may automatically produce the hormone epinephrine (aka adrenaline) directly into the blood stream. This can have various effects on various bodily systems, including:

Increased heart rate and blood pressure. It is common for a Tachypsychia subject’s pulse to rise to between 200 and 300 beats per minute (bpm). Increased heart rate (above 250 bpm) can cause fainting, and the body may adduct all limbs, adopting fetal position, in preparation for a coma.

Dilation of the bronchial passages, permitting higher absorption of oxygen.

Dilated pupils to allow more light to enter, and visual exclusion—tunnel vision—occurs, allowing greater focus but resulting in the loss of peripheral vision.

Release of glucose into the bloodstream, generating extra energy by raising the blood sugar level.

It is common for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or sensitivity. It is also common for individuals to experience an increased pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased fine motor skills, decreased communication skills, or decreased coordination.

The most common experience during Tachypsychia is the feeling that time has either increased or slowed down, brought on by the increased brain activity cause by epinephrine, or the severe decrease in brain activity caused by the “catecholamine washout” occurring after the event.

It is common for an individual experiencing Tachypsychia to have serious misinterpretations of their surroundings during the events, through a combination of their altered perception of time, as well as transient partial color blindness and tunnel vision. After the irregularly high levels of adrenaline consumed during sympathetic nervous system activation, an individual may display signs and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, and it is common for the person to display extreme emotional lability and fatigue, regardless of their actual physical exertion.

It is possible to manage Tachypsychia still occurring after the event, and it is common for soldiers and martial artists to use Tachypsychia in order to increase their performance during stressful situations.

You will need to understand all of the above before you actually become involved in a deadly force encounter. Your hearing will be gone. You will experience acute tunnel vision. Your ability to judge space and time will be gone as will your ability to reliably count the number of rounds either you or the armed intruders have discharged if any. It is critical that all of the above factors be understood beforehand.

Phase One additionally includes the development of a plan in the event of a break in. You may choose to assume any and all intruders are armed. The difference is that when confronted by an unauthorized and visually unarmed intruder in your home, what are your options?

Disparity of Force. Deadly force cannot be used unless the victim is in fear of deadly force. This usually requires the presence of a weapon. However, sometimes a significant disparity in the strength or fighting ability between the parties is accepted as a substitute weapon. The factors establishing a disparity of force include:

Age

Overwhelming size

Overwhelming strength

Force of Numbers

Advanced skill in unarmed combat

Many commentators add males against females as a category. Size, strength and aggression are typically male attributes, but not exclusively. There are women who can beat down the average man. It is accepted that women are more successful with this defense than are men.

In the best of all worlds, a jury in a criminal proceeding must make their judgment based upon what has come to be known as the ‘Reasonable Man Theory.’ What would a ‘reasonable man’ do or say under the conditions put before the court? If you are confronted by two adult males in your home who appear to be unarmed, what are your options under Disparity of Force? As a woman under these circumstances, the concept of disparity of force works in your favor wherein you are within your rights to defend yourself with deadly force. As a male in the same situation, how will you come out of it if you have reason to believe your life is in danger of grievous bodily harm or death? Do you legally have the right to use or display deadly force? If one assailant exits the scene and you are now confronting one seemingly unarmed individual, the concept of Disparity of Force no longer exists in the eyes of the court.

As part of your Phase One Program, the plan(s) you make may have to be altered slightly though the basic concepts must remain. There is a very real possibility you may get caught out in the open and unable to get to your previously arranged ‘safe room’. There are self-defense experts who strongly recommend that if you have chosen to maintain firearms for home defense it would be wise to have one available to you in different parts of your home. This is your choice.

It is in your best interests as part of your Phase One preparation to develop as much information as possible on the subject of justifiable lethal force. Selecting legal counsel after the incident has occurred is a mistake. It will be a quick and arbitrary choice based upon the first criminal defense attorney you find and the experience of that firm in justifiable lethal force cases may be minimal at best. Additionally, the law firm you do choose after the fact will see the urgency and will charge you accordingly. Select a competent criminal defense attorney with documented experience in justifiable lethal force cases before the incident occurs. Make this attorney/law firm aware of all documented information you have gathered and read on the subject of deadly force, justifiable lethal force and all involved subjects. This information can be used in court by your attorney to substantiate the reasons why you acted in the manner you did. Information presented to your attorney after the incident occurs is generally not accepted as it has no bearing on the actions you took or did not take.

Phase Two. Breakin in progress. Immediately implement your plan understanding that all of the above will quickly begin to affect your actions and/or inactions. Based entirely upon the progression of the incident, you may or may not have cause to discharge your firearm.

The only justifiable reason you have for discharging a firearm in the direction of another human being is your belief that the armed intruder(s) have exhibited the means and intent to cause you grave bodily harm or death.

Remember. Even though some areas do provide the legal right for you to use deadly force to protect property, the details found in Phase Three will give you cause to stand down.

During the course of Phase Two, keep in mind that just because you are legally within your right to discharge your firearm for the purpose of defending yourself in a deadly force encounter does not mean you are under any legal obligation to do so. If you are able to contain the situation by holding the individual(s) at gunpoint until law enforcement arrives without firing a shot, then do so. Make sure, however, that law enforcement knows before their arrival what your location is in the residence along with a physical description of yourself and the fact you are currently holding armed intruders at gunpoint awaiting their arrival. To the best of your ability, provide them a description of the intruders. Remember the Tachypsychia effects from above. Do not seek to replicate what you have seen on television or the movies. Yelling, “Freeze” does not work. Go for a hard consonant sound such as, “Don’t Move. Drop your weapon(s)” Give law enforcement permission ahead of time to breach any points of entry they deem necessary to safely and effectively enter your location.

It is the job and responsibility of arriving law enforcement officers to control the situation. So, do not be surprised to see their weapons aimed at you along with shouted directions to not move and drop your weapon. Remember. They do not know you and you very well may be one of the armed intruders they were called about who had just turned the tables on the homeowner. Once you have dropped your weapon, expect to be searched for any hidden weapons. Once they are convinced of your identity, understand that you are under no legal obligation to speak without the presence of legal counsel even when you have not discharged a firearm. You have heard it said time and again. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law and even if you have not been arrested and Mirandized, refrain from speaking until you have had the opportunity to calm down and have spoken with your legal counsel. A supposed ‘friendly’ discussion between yourself and arriving officers can result in you being arrested based entirely on the statements you make.

If you have in fact discharged a firearm at one or more of the armed intruders for the purpose of stopping them from placing your life in danger and those shots you fired have in fact stopped them from proceeding with their actions, everything you say to arriving law enforcement will be recorded on paper at the scene. You may even be arrested. This is when anything you say regarding the incident can turn a justifiable lethal force situation into a charge of homicide or murder. You may or may not be criminally charged. If so, contact your legal counsel immediately or instruct a family member or other trusted individual to do so.

If charged, you will be taken into custody to await arraignment and bail hearing. If you cannot make bail, you will more than likely be remanded until your court date. In order to legally represent you, your legal counsel will not be acting pro bono. Defending even a seemingly cut and dried case of justifiable self defense can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and even if you are acquitted, expect to be civilly sued by the family of the armed intruder(s) whom you shot in self defense. Even if you win the criminal case, you can still end up being successfully sued for an exorbitant sum.

Phase Three. Even if you were not forced to discharge your firearm, expect to suffer from varied degrees of psychological and even physical trauma. Sleepless nights, vomiting, shortness of breath and rapid pulse rate when the incident comes into your mind are among the most common. Do not be ashamed to seek help in the form of a psychiatrist, psychologist or other competent professional. For all intents and purposes, you will be experiencing the same symptoms which make up post traumatic stress disorder. Common among both active duty combat soldiers and law enforcement personnel whom have had to use their own firearm(s) during the course of their job.

In conclusion, will you be able to justify using a firearm to defend yourself in a deadly force situation?

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IMO a big thing that gets overlooked is fact that confronting an intruder/mugger etc with a weapon escaltes the situation. Is it really worth pulling your own weapon and confronting a home intruder, or would it be better to gather your family in one room, lock the door and make it clear the intruder will be shot if he tries to enter. Think what happens if the intruder shoots you- he is now all jacked on adrenaline and your family is left unprotected.

Similar thing with a mugger on the street. Is your crappy wallet and phone really worth you chancing getting stabbed or shot when you try and pull your own weapon?

Just because you have the weapons and training to violently defend yourself, doesn’t mean you should be looking to that as a good option. Like said in the above, even a justified self defense shooting can cost you thousands… It might be better to let a robber take your TV and laptop, or take your wallet and cellphone.

There’s no one size fits all approach to any of this. You don’t get to choose where and when you get assaulted.

If possible, locking yourself in a room with your people and waiting for help to arrive is often advised in a home invasion, but that may not always be possible.

I have been robbed at gun point and I didn’t resist. Didn’t own a gun at the time. That doesn’t change the nature of the threat, nor does it guarantee any good outcome. Plenty of people get killed or severely wounded in robberies.

Ultimately you have to make a judgment call in the violent moment. As a rule, I’m not one to assume a person in my home or drawing a weapon means me no harm. I will be looking for any opportunity to make safe.