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Less sets for more gain? Need opinion of big\strong dudes

Disclaimer: Ive been training for at least 4 years. 5’10 220, 20% bodyfat so no, food intake is NOT a problem.Im not a fucking dumbass who need to be tell that he needs 300+g of protein and just shut the fuck up and lift . Im already doing it. I want answer from big guy who did it in real life.

Ive been hitting a plateau for at least a 1 and a half year. Ive been training with a lot of different rep range, drop set, forced reps, etc. Ive always been using faily high volume, 20+set for big muscle around 16 sets for smaller.

My question is this, have you experience better gain in size and strenght from less sets? lets say 16 sets for big muscle and 9 set for smaller one?

Thanks for answer of real life experience.

You’ve varied rep ranges and the like, so wouldn’t it be time to look at it from an effectiveness perspective?
Do you have one primary goal or many?
If the high volume isn’t working, hell cut back.
Look at this. http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/my_greatest_gains_ever_dave_tate

It’s just 4 weeks. You aren’t gaining now. Think outside the box.

I noticed you are combining 20 +sets and going to and past failure with forced reps and drop sets. That will burn out your nervous system quickly, especially if you do not keep your workouts under an hour. There is conclusive research showing that cortisol levels rise and T levels drop very quickly after the hour mark of weight training which is counterproductive.

If your gona do 20 sets for a bodypart, then make sure you do them in under an hour. I personally never gained much while using that much volume but did get injured.
The ten sets method is my favorite(GVT) with one main exercise done for 10 sets of 5,4,or3 reps with timed rest periods along with one additional exercise for the same bodypart for 24 reps total which could be 6x4,4x6,8x3,2x12

Many good coaches reccomend a backoff week in volume every 3 weeks of training.
Doing 2 different exercises of 5x5 for a bodypart per day really worked well for me too, again thats a total of only 10 sets not done past failure on that day.

If I did 20 working sets, I would space them out into 2 workouts for that day separated by 2-4 hours, the Bulgarians have used that method with smashing success for years.Ten sets one wkt, ten the other.

Also I have found that as long as I dont break the over an hour rule, I can cram as much volume as I want into my workouts and improve results. Enter density training one of my faves!

[quote]sesumatse wrote:
I noticed you are combining 20 +sets and going to and past failure with forced reps and drop sets. That will burn out your nervous system quickly, especially if you do not keep your workouts under an hour. There is conclusive research showing that cortisol levels rise and T levels drop very quickly after the hour mark of weight training which is counterproductive.

If your gona do 20 sets for a bodypart, then make sure you do them in under an hour. I personally never gained much while using that much volume but did get injured.
The ten sets method is my favorite(GVT) with one main exercise done for 10 sets of 5,4,or3 reps with timed rest periods along with one additional exercise for the same bodypart for 24 reps total which could be 6x4,4x6,8x3,2x12

Many good coaches reccomend a backoff week in volume every 3 weeks of training.
Doing 2 different exercises of 5x5 for a bodypart per day really worked well for me too, again thats a total of only 10 sets not done past failure on that day.

If I did 20 working sets, I would space them out into 2 workouts for that day separated by 2-4 hours, the Bulgarians have used that method with smashing success for years.Ten sets one wkt, ten the other.

Also I have found that as long as I dont break the over an hour rule, I can cram as much volume as I want into my workouts and improve results. Enter density training one of my faves!

[/quote]

you are the master of bro-science. cant workout for over an hour? post some studies becaue as far as i know that myth has been disproven

[quote]sesumatse wrote:
I noticed you are combining 20 +sets and going to and past failure with forced reps and drop sets. That will burn out your nervous system quickly, especially if you do not keep your workouts under an hour. There is conclusive research showing that cortisol levels rise and T levels drop very quickly after the hour mark of weight training which is counterproductive.

If your gona do 20 sets for a bodypart, then make sure you do them in under an hour. I personally never gained much while using that much volume but did get injured.
The ten sets method is my favorite(GVT) with one main exercise done for 10 sets of 5,4,or3 reps with timed rest periods along with one additional exercise for the same bodypart for 24 reps total which could be 6x4,4x6,8x3,2x12

Many good coaches reccomend a backoff week in volume every 3 weeks of training.
Doing 2 different exercises of 5x5 for a bodypart per day really worked well for me too, again thats a total of only 10 sets not done past failure on that day.

If I did 20 working sets, I would space them out into 2 workouts for that day separated by 2-4 hours, the Bulgarians have used that method with smashing success for years.Ten sets one wkt, ten the other.

Also I have found that as long as I dont break the over an hour rule, I can cram as much volume as I want into my workouts and improve results. Enter density training one of my faves!

[/quote]

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
Disclaimer: Ive been training for at least 4 years. 5’10 220, 20% bodyfat so no, food intake is NOT a problem.Im not a fucking dumbass who need to be tell that he needs 300+g of protein and just shut the fuck up and lift . Im already doing it. I want answer from big guy who did it in real life.

Ive been hitting a plateau for at least a 1 and a half year. Ive been training with a lot of different rep range, drop set, forced reps, etc. Ive always been using faily high volume, 20+set for big muscle around 16 sets for smaller.

My question is this, have you experience better gain in size and strenght from less sets? lets say 16 sets for big muscle and 9 set for smaller one?

Thanks for answer of real life experience.[/quote]

Have you been using forced reps and drop sets etc. whilst engaging on a high volume training programme? Such use of said methods accompanied by high volume training may have an negative impact on your overall recovery.

My best muscular gains accumulated from short duration but high intensity workouts, hitting each bodypart once every 9-11 days training no longer than 40 minutes per workout, for example, when training chest I would do perhaps 3 warm up sets on the incline barbell press and 1 all out working set consisting either of one or two forced reps or descending sets, from there I’d move on to seated hammer strenght chest press, 2 warms up sets or even just one warm up set, (my chest is already well warmed up from the incline barbell press previous) and one working set just to failure. My point is that for me there is no need to waste time on numerous warmup sets after you completed the initial heavy basic excersise. (Incline barbell press) Perhaps two or even just one set would suffice to get a feel of the next excersises before you do your working set, thus cutting down on the volume and allowing your body time to recover and grow.

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]sesumatse wrote:
I noticed you are combining 20 +sets and going to and past failure with forced reps and drop sets. That will burn out your nervous system quickly, especially if you do not keep your workouts under an hour. There is conclusive research showing that cortisol levels rise and T levels drop very quickly after the hour mark of weight training which is counterproductive.

If your gona do 20 sets for a bodypart, then make sure you do them in under an hour. I personally never gained much while using that much volume but did get injured.
The ten sets method is my favorite(GVT) with one main exercise done for 10 sets of 5,4,or3 reps with timed rest periods along with one additional exercise for the same bodypart for 24 reps total which could be 6x4,4x6,8x3,2x12

Many good coaches reccomend a backoff week in volume every 3 weeks of training.
Doing 2 different exercises of 5x5 for a bodypart per day really worked well for me too, again thats a total of only 10 sets not done past failure on that day.

If I did 20 working sets, I would space them out into 2 workouts for that day separated by 2-4 hours, the Bulgarians have used that method with smashing success for years.Ten sets one wkt, ten the other.

Also I have found that as long as I dont break the over an hour rule, I can cram as much volume as I want into my workouts and improve results. Enter density training one of my faves!

[/quote]

you are the master of bro-science. cant workout for over an hour? post some studies becaue as far as i know that myth has been disproven[/quote]
That is a fair question. Could you, for sake of argument, post some studies that disprove it as well?

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
Disclaimer: Ive been training for at least 4 years. 5’10 220, 20% bodyfat so no, food intake is NOT a problem.Im not a fucking dumbass who need to be tell that he needs 300+g of protein and just shut the fuck up and lift . Im already doing it. I want answer from big guy who did it in real life.

Ive been hitting a plateau for at least a 1 and a half year. Ive been training with a lot of different rep range, drop set, forced reps, etc. Ive always been using faily high volume, 20+set for big muscle around 16 sets for smaller.

My question is this, have you experience better gain in size and strenght from less sets? lets say 16 sets for big muscle and 9 set for smaller one?

Thanks for answer of real life experience.[/quote]

I was a similar size,(I even got as high as 270), as you and experienced a similar plateau using the Weider principles espoused by many, I was stuck for 3 years-ish, changes in volume not withstanding.
My assessment of the Weider principles is that they work for people using PEDs to surpass plateaus, they worked for me to a point when gains ceased or became very near stagnant.
DC worked for me but I didn’t enjoy the lack of volume.

I train raw powerlifting now and I prefer that and have grown best from that, though I looked better on DC, I feel better and stronger now, and most importantly to me, I enjoy my training more.
I’d recommend using a program that specifically targets plateaus in the fabric of the program, either by planned de-loading, or by switching exercises ala DC and westside or use drugs or go hog wild on the food and see what kind of mass and strength you can pack on using endogenous insulin, (that last one didn’t work as well for me as switching to what I view as more focused programming).
I train with way less volume now and am way leaner and way stronger, than when I was at the height of my bodypart split training.
Just my personal experience, not a broad claim of any kind of superiority.

Interesting respond from every body.

HITKILLER:

I see that HIT seems to work for you, you show a really good muscular developement. Dont you ever feel like HIT is not enough and you still got some in the tank? How have your lifts improve on HIT? You say you it each bodypart every 9-11 day, have you ever tried to it them say every 5-6 day with the HIT method?

KNOTGINUWHINE:

What kind of kinds in term of strenght and mass have you experience with DC? natural or assisted? you say you train raw powerlifting now, do you add some hypertrophy assistance to your program? Wath is the frequency of your training?

SESUMATSE:

How to you the 5x5? Are these 5 straight set? ramping up? 2 warm up 3 straight sets?

lose weight 20% is pretty dam fat.

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

HITKILLER:

I see that HIT seems to work for you, you show a really good muscular developement. Dont you ever feel like HIT is not enough and you still got some in the tank? How have your lifts improve on HIT? You say you it each bodypart every 9-11 day, have you ever tried to it them say every 5-6 day with the HIT method?

KNOTGINUWHINE:

What kind of kinds in term of strenght and mass have you experience with DC? natural or assisted? you say you train raw powerlifting now, do you add some hypertrophy assistance to your program? Wath is the frequency of your training?[/quote]

Unassisted.
I didn’t last long on DC, the lack of volume turned me off, probably did like 2 years-ish.
I call that not long because I was Weider principle body part split guy for 4-5 years before that, and I’ve been training with an athletic focus for the last 4 years.
Strength gains are very hard to quantify because it was so long ago and on DC you are always switching exercises to stave off plateau.
I was around 6’00" 200lbs in the neighbor hood of 12%bf on DC. Never tested bf, but had abs had quite visible serratus, inclined like 225-ish for some reps don’t remember other numbers.
My training now is far from ideal do to time constraints, 2 days a week. But I’m a 400/300/500 guy, and more pertinent to the bodybuilding form, am not close to as lean as I was on the DC, yet happier with my training and bigger and stronger.

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

HITKILLER:

I see that HIT seems to work for you, you show a really good muscular developement. Dont you ever feel like HIT is not enough and you still got some in the tank? How have your lifts improve on HIT? You say you it each bodypart every 9-11 day, have you ever tried to it them say every 5-6 day with the HIT method?

KNOTGINUWHINE:

What kind of kinds in term of strenght and mass have you experience with DC? natural or assisted? you say you train raw powerlifting now, do you add some hypertrophy assistance to your program? Wath is the frequency of your training?[/quote]

My current assistance work is all timed, (except curls where i just curl until my arms are as pumped as i can get them), so my assistance is neither focused on hypertrophy or strength I intend it to be more like, time saving conditioning, at least that is my intent. If it’s squat day I do heavy squats and then 50 reps of deadlifts as fast as I can, timed. Under 4 minutes add a plate or a quarter whichever one is less. Same thing/style on Bench/OH press days but I also do lat pull down 100 reps timed, under 8 minutes go up a plate, and the aforementioned curls.
My assistance is ment to be time saving and heart rate challenging, as gaining mass ain’t exactly something I’m worried about right now.

Thank you for the kind words. If done correctly, I feel HIT is more than enough to tax my body as well as a particular bodypart(s) I train on a specific day by pushing my working sets to absolute failure and utilizing forced reps, negatives only and other high intensity protocols.
However I only incorporate said methods for 4-6 weeks maximum and then have a cooling off period for 3 or 4 weeks where I train to a rep or two below failure, and perhaps a week off weight training entirely. I never fear to take an extra day of rest if I feel I need it.

To monitor my progress I always keep a training diary, besides its use for imputting my workouts and nutritional intake, I also factor in external influences such as work, family etc all of which helps me guage my progress accordingly. Certain lifts have progressed in regards of strenght such as my incline barbell press has improved 14% since this time last year. However strenght is just one indicator of progress. A very critical and objective eye is crucial for overall muscular development.

Six years ago I trained each body part once every six days, which turned to seven, eight, nine, ten days and so on. I do believe, for me, the stronger one gets, the heavier the poundage used, the more stress placed on not only the muscles, but also the central nervous system and immune system.

I’m not saying high volume training is devoid of merits, but for me, progression in muscular size and development was attained quicker using high intensity training.

[quote]optheta wrote:
lose weight 20% is pretty dam fat.[/quote]

I carry my fat well and I can see my abs a little bit when flexing… I care about gaining weight not loosing.

show a pic of yourself big guy? You must be big and ripped?

[quote]Hitkiller wrote:

[/quote]

Thanks, do you you HIT with assistance excercice too? lets say tricep extension, do you do 2 warm up set and 1 set to failure?

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

But I’m a 400/300/500 guy, and more pertinent to the bodybuilding form, am not close to as lean as I was on the DC, yet happier with my training and bigger and stronger.[/quote]

Good lifts man. Do you remenber what was your lift when you were doing a traditionnal bodypart split?

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

But I’m a 400/300/500 guy, and more pertinent to the bodybuilding form, am not close to as lean as I was on the DC, yet happier with my training and bigger and stronger.[/quote]

Good lifts man. Do you remenber what was your lift when you were doing a traditionnal bodypart split?[/quote]
I didn’t squat and DL then because “everybody knows squating is bad for your knees and DL will break your back”.
I really really really really wish I would have not “KNOWN” that, I’d be way way bigger now.
I gained so much density to my muscle when I started DL on the reg, and LATs, I lifted every Lat exercise for all the weight in the entire gym some years 3 days a week with miniscule visible results compared to what DL did to my wings in the first in 3 months.
My bench was stuck at 275 for years. I legged pressed alot but that’s not relavent for comparisons as every leg press machine is different.
I don’t remember what I rowed or curled or dumb belled, I do remember that I used to be able to rep the whole stack on v-grip pull downs at Oregon in their rec center, I wana say that was 22 flat plates ish? But, what does that even mean? My lats popped for the first time when my deadlift got above 400, and I learned that way too late in life thanks to bad advice.

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

But I’m a 400/300/500 guy, and more pertinent to the bodybuilding form, am not close to as lean as I was on the DC, yet happier with my training and bigger and stronger.[/quote]

Good lifts man. Do you remenber what was your lift when you were doing a traditionnal bodypart split?[/quote]
I didn’t squat and DL then because “everybody knows squating is bad for your knees and DL will break your back”.
I really really really really wish I would have not “KNOWN” that, I’d be way way bigger now.
I gained so much density to my muscle when I started DL on the reg, and LATs, I lifted every Lat exercise for all the weight in the entire gym some years 3 days a week with miniscule visible results compared to what DL did to my wings in the first in 3 months.
My bench was stuck at 275 for years. I legged pressed alot but that’s not relavent for comparisons as every leg press machine is different.
I don’t remember what I rowed or curled or dumb belled, I do remember that I used to be able to rep the whole stack on v-grip pull downs at Oregon in their rec center, I wana say that was 22 flat plates ish? But, what does that even mean? My lats popped for the first time when my deadlift got above 400, and I learned that way too late in life thanks to bad advice.[/quote]

Your bench is the same as me right now… I do squat, but no deadlift… Everytime I try it, a got severe low back pain( my form probably suck), and I can’t squat for week because of that pain.

Interesting that you were strong on lats movement, put no lats developpement. Maybe bad mind muscle connection, maybe you were using your arms too much?

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:

[quote]knotginuwhine wrote:
Interesting respond from every body.

But I’m a 400/300/500 guy, and more pertinent to the bodybuilding form, am not close to as lean as I was on the DC, yet happier with my training and bigger and stronger.[/quote]

Good lifts man. Do you remenber what was your lift when you were doing a traditionnal bodypart split?[/quote]
I didn’t squat and DL then because “everybody knows squating is bad for your knees and DL will break your back”.
I really really really really wish I would have not “KNOWN” that, I’d be way way bigger now.
I gained so much density to my muscle when I started DL on the reg, and LATs, I lifted every Lat exercise for all the weight in the entire gym some years 3 days a week with miniscule visible results compared to what DL did to my wings in the first in 3 months.
My bench was stuck at 275 for years. I legged pressed alot but that’s not relavent for comparisons as every leg press machine is different.
I don’t remember what I rowed or curled or dumb belled, I do remember that I used to be able to rep the whole stack on v-grip pull downs at Oregon in their rec center, I wana say that was 22 flat plates ish? But, what does that even mean? My lats popped for the first time when my deadlift got above 400, and I learned that way too late in life thanks to bad advice.[/quote]

Your bench is the same as me right now… I do squat, but no deadlift… Everytime I try it, a got severe low back pain( my form probably suck), and I can’t squat for week because of that pain.

Interesting that you were strong on lats movement, put no lats developpement. Maybe bad mind muscle connection, maybe you were using your arms too much?
[/quote]
Maybe, it was a long time ago now.
I had some lats, I’m overstating things a bit, for me DL are the best back exercise. I’ve done every row and I’ve done every different hammer strength machine, many of which are good, but nothing is like DL for me, its almost like a full body pump.
I wouldn’t DL if it caused bad kind of pain.
Injury can be worse for your training than a wife.