Less of a Physique?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ve never personally understood someone who wasn’t pushing to become a pro BBer or chasing a national powerlifting ranking would use.

I train because I love training and want to make myself better, for no one but me. And using, to me, has always seemed like little more than a way to keep up with the Jones’.

I’m satisfied with my training, my progress, and where I am. I don’t think something like steroids could make that happen for someone.

Lifting is a lifelong process as far as I’m concerned. I’m going to do it until something forces me to not be able to. I don’t see the point in taking a shortcut when I’m enjoying the ride.[/quote]

strongly agree with this whole post.[/quote]

I’ve had the unique experience of training at the same gym as and chatting on a fairly daily basis with Desmond Miller for several years. As a current WNBF Pro myself, and Des being a former WNBFer who went as far as his amazing genetics and tons of intelligent and hard work can take you, we had some interesting exchanges over the years. I always admired and respected him as an honest, and straight forward guy, and I was very honored to say that he always expressed his respect that I chose to do what I do.

Without trying to quote, or attribute word for word statements to the man (I would never do that, because I’m sure it would get misquoted all over the place), I will point out that had he not realized the insanely rare chance to make money in the sport that he was given, I’m not so sure (my opinion here!!!) he would have stepped over ‘the line’ and pursued a place in the IFBB.

At the same time, there were countless ho-hum looking guys in our gym who were very open about their PED usage, and who looked fairly laughable physique-wise.

S

22

any impressive physique is still impressive in my eyes reguardless of whether they use or don’t use PEDs

but anyways I am significantly more impressed when someone has built an impressive physique without PEDs

My opinion will be less popular among most here. But I’ve watched people get really good results with PEDs in terms of size and strength (none of them look good enough to step on a stage) and I’ve watched some real idiots surpase me thanks to PEDs which I believe they would not have if they stayed natural. It’s discouraging and I don’t like it.

With that being said some day I may (big maybe) do some T cycles.

23

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve had the unique experience of training at the same gym as and chatting on a fairly daily basis with Desmond Miller for several years. As a current WNBF Pro myself, and Des being a former WNBFer who went as far as his amazing genetics and tons of intelligent and hard work can take you, we had some interesting exchanges over the years. I always admired and respected him as an honest, and straight forward guy, and I was very honored to say that he always expressed his respect that I chose to do what I do.

Without trying to quote, or attribute word for word statements to the man (I would never do that, because I’m sure it would get misquoted all over the place), I will point out that had he not realized the insanely rare chance to make money in the sport that he was given, I’m not so sure (my opinion here!!!) he would have stepped over ‘the line’ and pursued a place in the IFBB.

At the same time, there were countless ho-hum looking guys in our gym who were very open about their PED usage, and who looked fairly laughable physique-wise.

S[/quote]

Stu, I apologise if this is too personal a question, but obviously at some point you had the choice either to stay natural or go assisted and you chose natural. Would you mind saying why?

24

people talk about genetics too much on here
yes it determines factors like bone structure muscle shape…ect
but all of these things pale when you have someone walking around with 10x your test level
there is no way genetics trump drugs I dont care if u were made from the semen of arnold and coleman combined

what about guys who just respond amazingly well to drugs ? no side effects + amazing gains. They can start out with the shittiest genetics possible but they blow up faster than anyone else on drugs

25

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
Stu, I apologise if this is too personal a question, but obviously at some point you had the choice either to stay natural or go assisted and you chose natural. Would you mind saying why?[/quote]

Well, I always say that at some point you have to ask yourself what you hope to get out of your training. I started working out hoping to put on a few lbs and maybe look like some of the super heroes I used to draw. I had no intentions of ever stepping on a bodybuilding stage. Heck, I never thought I would have gotten up to, let alone over 200 lbs!

I guess it’s been a series of steps for me. First show I won the overall novice, so I asked myself “could I be better if I actually focus on doing this instead of just doing it on a whim?” Next year I won the open overall and my 1st pro card. Certainly more than I ever thought I would accomplish, especially so quickly. I then asked myself “ok, you’re a USBF pro, but everyone knows the WNBF has the best clean competitors in the world, can you be good enough to hack it there?” So I took another year of intense focus, and day in day out-am I doing more than anyone else could possibly be doing-training and I won my WNBF pro card.

So there I am, a year shy of 40, quite a few injuries starting to affect my training, and I step back and look at where I am, and what I could possibly still want to achieve. Sure there were plenty of folks in the gyms I’ve trained at who would love nothing more than to see me cross over and do what’s necessary to compete in an untested NPC show.

Of course at this point, what would I hope to get out of that? I think that trophies and titles aside, what my competitive history has earned me more than anything is respect. I’ve undoubtedly developed quite a reputation as a prep guy and online coach, not merely with natural competitors, but with a good number of assisted folks as well.

I can only assume that achieving what I have ‘clean’ has been a huge testament to my knowledge. Of course there are always going to be people to look at my contest pics, and having no real clue of just how little I weigh, tell all their buddies that I must be juiced. With that being the case, were I to be scene walking around in the audience at a contest at 220, 230 lbs (at 5’8), it’s not like I could play it off to a little creatine.

With the little bit of money that comes from this sport (unless you’re a top 10 finisher at the Olympia), and the fact that it really comes from being hired for training, or coaching, all that really counts is your own track record, and your reputation with your clients. For me, that’s what I’m hoping to get out of this. I have no illusions about my genetics. Even injury free, and age not being a factor, I’m not making it to the IFBB stage anytime soon and I’m very much okay with that.

S

26

that was really cool Stu, and the fact that people accuse you of being juiced just goes to show what awesome work you’ve done.

27

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

… and I’ve watched some real idiots surpase me thanks to PEDs which I believe they would not have if they stayed natural. It’s discouraging and I don’t like it.

…[/quote]

I have had that feeling before.

28

This is a bit of the longer read for a forum but bear with me.

Even if one somehow knew and possessed all the information available to bodybuilders today, there is one undeniable limitation of which one must concede to. One cannot construct a physique to a greater degree than what one’s genetic potential allows. It is impossible!

It would be great if we could choose our own parents in order to select specific advantageous bodybuilding characteristics. However, this is not possible. Before you feel disgraced by your lineage for providing a bleak genetic potential in the sport you love let me inform you that any man or woman in robust health and of normal bone structure has sufficient real estate on which to produce a truly magnificent body.

Look at stu, a pro who talks about little potential he thought he had with little or no thoughts about standing upon a actual stage. He is now in a place where 99% of those on this board would trade their physique for the level of developed he has achieved in his.

The good news is no one has ever utilized his or her raw potential to the fullest limit of their genetic capacity. Although unfavorable genetics have made thousands of bodybuilders ultimate achievements difficult, no individual has ever been completely and totally limited by them!

Stay away from these harmful drugs. Everything about them should rub you the wrong way. They were invented for sick people suffering from muscle wasting and other maladies. The sad fact in this situation is at the root of the question you pose. AAS is a huge turnoff to the fan of bodybuilding. When one finds out that a bodybuilder (not just pros, but anyone one knows whose admirable physique is built upon a house of cards supported by PEDS) he admires takes drugs, he is disapointed beyond belief. His idol is a cheat who relies on synthetic chemicals to build his body.

Bodybuilding is little more then a cult today when at one point is was destined to become mainstream. Forget these bulbous, steroid buitl physiques that look grotesque. As I’ve stated before I’ve seen sausages with more interesting shapes. The truth is, of course, rob the body of its personality. Do we all want to look like gigantic water filled balloons

This is a interesting question because the young bodybuilder does want to look gigantic, he inevitably gets caught up with the size syndrome perpetuated by modern bodybuilding. Only later, when his sense of aesthetics is more balanced, does he really appreciate the importance of shape, separation, and definition. Stu, or for that matter and truly natural pro, could tell you all about this but sadly few would take the lesson to heart.

Although I concede that a bodybuilder on steroids will gain size and strength at a faster rate than a non-user, I believe it that the acquired mass does not help him look any better in any way. Though that may be a jumping of conclusions to some, I believe those who feel this way would not say its a jump to state this in no way perpetuates the end goal of bodybuilding.

If you think about it it is quite a curious topic. The most genetically endowed individuals seldom reach the top. Why? Because this natural physical superiority must be married to determination, motivation and effort. In other words, even the most gifted among us must be willing to use all of their endowment to the limit. You have to work at it!

This brings us to the most important barometer of muscle building potential which is difficult to estimate as muscle cell counts even with today’s technology. Having your fair share of testosterone, or male hormone, in bodybuilding is vitally important. This, as you might guess, is the reason why so many bodybuilders feel it absolutely necessary to take artificial hormone drugs.

This is no tirade about how the AAS users put in less work, less dedication or so on an so forth but in the end it is undeniable their physique lies within the needle for they would not have it without the chemicals contained withing. Since no one has ever attained the true peak of their potential naturally, this is clearly a roadblock to the true determination, motivation and effort required to forge a physique with the iron. It allows one to skip lessons learned that can be passed on to the next in line since they are found in a needle.

When endeavoring to gain bulk and size we naturally have to look at two distinct roads to attain it. The first road is steroids and the second is to envitably do it the natural way. I personally hope everyone makes the right decision, naturally.

Build your body and your health. Jump aboard and fly with the eagles!

29

[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
This is a bit of the longer read for a forum but bear with me.

Even if one somehow knew and possessed all the information available to bodybuilders today, there is one undeniable limitation of which one must concede to. One cannot construct a physique to a greater degree than what one’s genetic potential allows. It is impossible!

It would be great if we could choose our own parents in order to select specific advantageous bodybuilding characteristics. However, this is not possible. Before you feel disgraced by your lineage for providing a bleak genetic potential in the sport you love let me inform you that any man or woman in robust health and of normal bone structure has sufficient real estate on which to produce a truly magnificent body.

Look at stu, a pro who talks about little potential he thought he had with little or no thoughts about standing upon a actual stage. He is now in a place where 99% of those on this board would trade their physique for the level of developed he has achieved in his.

The good news is no one has ever utilized his or her raw potential to the fullest limit of their genetic capacity. Although unfavorable genetics have made thousands of bodybuilders ultimate achievements difficult, no individual has ever been completely and totally limited by them!

Stay away from these harmful drugs. Everything about them should rub you the wrong way. They were invented for sick people suffering from muscle wasting and other maladies. The sad fact in this situation is at the root of the question you pose. AAS is a huge turnoff to the fan of bodybuilding. When one finds out that a bodybuilder (not just pros, but anyone one knows whose admirable physique is built upon a house of cards supported by PEDS) he admires takes drugs, he is disapointed beyond belief. His idol is a cheat who relies on synthetic chemicals to build his body.

Bodybuilding is little more then a cult today when at one point is was destined to become mainstream. Forget these bulbous, steroid buitl physiques that look grotesque. As I’ve stated before I’ve seen sausages with more interesting shapes. The truth is, of course, rob the body of its personality. Do we all want to look like gigantic water filled balloons

This is a interesting question because the young bodybuilder does want to look gigantic, he inevitably gets caught up with the size syndrome perpetuated by modern bodybuilding. Only later, when his sense of aesthetics is more balanced, does he really appreciate the importance of shape, separation, and definition. Stu, or for that matter and truly natural pro, could tell you all about this but sadly few would take the lesson to heart.

Although I concede that a bodybuilder on steroids will gain size and strength at a faster rate than a non-user, I believe it that the acquired mass does not help him look any better in any way. Though that may be a jumping of conclusions to some, I believe those who feel this way would not say its a jump to state this in no way perpetuates the end goal of bodybuilding.

If you think about it it is quite a curious topic. The most genetically endowed individuals seldom reach the top. Why? Because this natural physical superiority must be married to determination, motivation and effort. In other words, even the most gifted among us must be willing to use all of their endowment to the limit. You have to work at it!

This brings us to the most important barometer of muscle building potential which is difficult to estimate as muscle cell counts even with today’s technology. Having your fair share of testosterone, or male hormone, in bodybuilding is vitally important. This, as you might guess, is the reason why so many bodybuilders feel it absolutely necessary to take artificial hormone drugs.

This is no tirade about how the AAS users put in less work, less dedication or so on an so forth but in the end it is undeniable their physique lies within the needle for they would not have it without the chemicals contained withing. Since no one has ever attained the true peak of their potential naturally, this is clearly a roadblock to the true determination, motivation and effort required to forge a physique with the iron. It allows one to skip lessons learned that can be passed on to the next in line since they are found in a needle.

When endeavoring to gain bulk and size we naturally have to look at two distinct roads to attain it. The first road is steroids and the second is to envitably do it the natural way. I personally hope everyone makes the right decision, naturally.

Build your body and your health. Jump aboard and fly with the eagles! [/quote]

i strongly disagree with everything you just wrote. someone is not a cheat if they choose to use, they are a cheat if they lie about there use.

im starting to plan a cycle for mid next year, why would i do this you ask. i do this because i want what cant be acheived nturaly, i dont want to spend 10-12 years natty to acheieve something that can be done 3-5 years using. now this is in no disrespect to those who train natty i admire the will and dedication it takes. but its not for me.

thats just my opinion on the subject.

30

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
people talk about genetics too much on here
yes it determines factors like bone structure muscle shape…ect
but all of these things pale when you have someone walking around with 10x your test level
there is no way genetics trump drugs I dont care if u were made from the semen of arnold and coleman combined

what about guys who just respond amazingly well to drugs ? no side effects + amazing gains. They can start out with the shittiest genetics possible but they blow up faster than anyone else on drugs
[/quote]

Seriously??? Let’s look at some genetic extremes here and see if you can still make that statement. Have you ever seen that little boy in Germany with a genetic myostatin deficiency? Or Belgian Blue cattle? Let’s compare that to someone with a genetic muscle wasting disorder like Duchenne muscular dystrophy (who are often prescribed AAS as treatment to delay the inevitable).

While these extreme examples may not be of much relevance to us ordinary folk, the potential impact that genetics can have is undeniable. I don’t like the vibe I get from your post. It seems to say, “drugs can make up for bad genetics”. We must all strive to look at our genetic potential in an unbiased (that’s the hard part) way, in order to accurately gauge our strengths and weaknesses and adjust training accordingly. And NOT MAKING EXCUSES.

Also, differences in drug response is determined to a large extent by variations in individual biochemistry, which is largely (though not exclusively) determined by genetic factors. Factors such as receptor affinity, rate of drug metabolism, endogenous hormone balance, efficiency of nutrient absorption from food, and many more can all have a large effect on drug response and all have a significant genetic component. If you use, drug response throws additional genetic factors into the mix as a requirement for success at a high level.

Genetics are what differentiates you from a fruit fly. I’d say that’s a hell of a lot more powerful than any needle.

31

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve known way too many gym rats who partake of PEDs and still don’t build impressive physiques to ever attribute them as the maker or breaker of an impressive musculature.

S[/quote]

This.

A couple guys I know have taken anabolic and just finished a single month of HGH and still look the same maybe a wee bit leaner. I shake my head in stupidity of them both. They look like they lift and nothing more.

32

of course the natural is more impressive

if you use steroids you should have significantly more muscle than is possible to build naturally, for it to be as impressive

and i disagree with the people who act like the steroid users would have been able to build muscle without taking the steroids. obviously it is harder to build muscle w/o steroids, a lot of them would’ve quit when they didn’t get their instant gratification

33

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:
obviously it is harder to build muscle w/o steroids, a lot of them would’ve quit when they didn’t get their instant gratification
[/quote]

and that’s why , at least to me, it’s impressive when you see someone who stuck with something and persevered to achieve their goals. I trained for 15 years before I ever stepped foot onstage, and even after, I still had lots to learn and even more progress to make.

S

34

Would Barry Bonds 71 be MORE impressive if he wasn’t Balco’s premiere customer?

Point is unless everyone’s doing it, its not a level playing field. As level as it can be by chance genetics that is.

Natural bodies are more impressive anyway.

35

I always felt that if it is a impressive physique then it doesn’t matter what they take, because recently a friend made this point to me (hes okay size, but he looks hard a fucken rock, from the stuff he takes); that BB & Supplements(drugs or whatever) go together and its been like since the inception of it.

So how can I really blame/belittle/write-off somebody whose physique was crafted using PEDs?

Is it any different then a guy who is afraid of public speaking and takes a anxiety calming pill to get over it vs a guy who learns to deal with it through practice? At the end of the day all people will see is your work, not the process.

36

[quote]optheta wrote:
I always felt that if it is a impressive physique then it doesn’t matter what they take, because recently a friend made this point to me (hes okay size, but he looks hard a fucken rock, from the stuff he takes); that BB & Supplements(drugs or whatever) go together and its been like since the inception of it.

So how can I really blame/belittle/write-off somebody whose physique was crafted using PEDs?

Is it any different then a guy who is afraid of public speaking and takes a anxiety calming pill to get over it vs a guy who learns to deal with it through practice? At the end of the day all people will see is your work, not the process.

[/quote]

Show me someone who’s not nervous of speaking in front of a crowd and I’ll show you a bad public speaker

You never deal with that nervousness. You harness it. Just like the body your given. You form it into the best it can be. You don’t take some pill to make you a better speaker or have a better body.

Then as anyone who gets old realizes, the only thing you can pass on is your knowledge; your legacy. You pass it on and make the next person better. PEDS destroy this in bodybuilding as enhancement comes from the needle. Please don’t say it doesn’t because these physiques don’t exist once someone abstains from AAS.

37

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
people talk about genetics too much on here
yes it determines factors like bone structure muscle shape…ect
but all of these things pale when you have someone walking around with 10x your test level
there is no way genetics trump drugs I dont care if u were made from the semen of arnold and coleman combined

what about guys who just respond amazingly well to drugs ? no side effects + amazing gains. They can start out with the shittiest genetics possible but they blow up faster than anyone else on drugs
[/quote]

Seriously??? Let’s look at some genetic extremes here and see if you can still make that statement. Have you ever seen that little boy in Germany with a genetic myostatin deficiency? Or Belgian Blue cattle? Let’s compare that to someone with a genetic muscle wasting disorder like Duchenne muscular dystrophy (who are often prescribed AAS as treatment to delay the inevitable).

While these extreme examples may not be of much relevance to us ordinary folk, the potential impact that genetics can have is undeniable. I don’t like the vibe I get from your post. It seems to say, “drugs can make up for bad genetics”. We must all strive to look at our genetic potential in an unbiased (that’s the hard part) way, in order to accurately gauge our strengths and weaknesses and adjust training accordingly. And NOT MAKING EXCUSES.

Also, differences in drug response is determined to a large extent by variations in individual biochemistry, which is largely (though not exclusively) determined by genetic factors. Factors such as receptor affinity, rate of drug metabolism, endogenous hormone balance, efficiency of nutrient absorption from food, and many more can all have a large effect on drug response and all have a significant genetic component. If you use, drug response throws additional genetic factors into the mix as a requirement for success at a high level.

Genetics are what differentiates you from a fruit fly. I’d say that’s a hell of a lot more powerful than any needle.[/quote]

nice, resorting to extreme examples to make your argument
comparing humans to flys also is very relevant
as far as I know elite bber arent suffering from myostatin deficiency
at best their genetics are slight outliners to your average guy
it is still a factor but when you throw in test, gh, insulin ect your ability to add muscle increases drastically (assuming proper nutrition, training obv) . Genetics will determine how your muscle shape thats it

38

[quote]ElevenMag wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
I always felt that if it is a impressive physique then it doesn’t matter what they take, because recently a friend made this point to me (hes okay size, but he looks hard a fucken rock, from the stuff he takes); that BB & Supplements(drugs or whatever) go together and its been like since the inception of it.

So how can I really blame/belittle/write-off somebody whose physique was crafted using PEDs?

Is it any different then a guy who is afraid of public speaking and takes a anxiety calming pill to get over it vs a guy who learns to deal with it through practice? At the end of the day all people will see is your work, not the process.

[/quote]

Show me someone who’s not nervous of speaking in front of a crowd and I’ll show you a bad public speaker

You never deal with that nervousness. You harness it. Just like the body your given. You form it into the best it can be. You don’t take some pill to make you a better speaker or have a better body.

Then as anyone who gets old realizes, the only thing you can pass on is your knowledge; your legacy. You pass it on and make the next person better. PEDS destroy this in bodybuilding as enhancement comes from the needle. Please don’t say it doesn’t because these physiques don’t exist once someone abstains from AAS.[/quote]

beta blockers make public speaking easier…

you really have no clue what you are talking about do you?

39

[quote]Fuzzyapple.Train wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve known way too many gym rats who partake of PEDs and still don’t build impressive physiques to ever attribute them as the maker or breaker of an impressive musculature.

S[/quote]

This.

A couple guys I know have taken anabolic and just finished a single month of HGH and still look the same maybe a wee bit leaner. I shake my head in stupidity of them both. They look like they lift and nothing more.[/quote]

you have to run hgh for a considerable period of time in order for the effects to be seen… longer than a month for sure if we are talking average doses…

also, hgh is one of the most faked products in the PED world, it’s incredibly difficult to find a legit source.

but whatever

40

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:
of course the natural is more impressive

if you use steroids you should have significantly more muscle than is possible to build naturally, for it to be as impressive

and i disagree with the people who act like the steroid users would have been able to build muscle without taking the steroids. obviously it is harder to build muscle w/o steroids, a lot of them would’ve quit when they didn’t get their instant gratification
[/quote]

lol just no. your talking shit about something you clearly dont know much about. you dont know peoples reasons for using. did you know that after your first 2-3 years of proper training natty your gains slow down dramatically. if someone chooses to use does that mean there impatient or lazy… no it doesnt, for most it means achieving what can not be done natty.