Legal Advice: School Breaches Contract

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The ACLU would be all over this.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. If their actions are legal and shielded by law, the ACLU can’t do much about it. They’re too busy fighting the good fight when they have a leg to stand on. The fact that this is a religious school and may have some legal protection, changes things dramatically.

He should still take the 1/2 hour to sit down with an employment lawyer.

OP let us know what your lawyer says.

Personally, if it’s a small, private religious school, I think they should have the right to make these decisions whether I agree with them or not. I’m not big on organized religion so I can’t really get worked up about that angle, but I do believe they should have the right to make these choices if they are private and do not accept public funds. It’s their money, it’s private and I think they should get to do whatever they please, how they please, no matter how repugnant we may or may not find it.[/quote]

God bless the 1st Amendment

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I suppose. But the primary part of what the parents are paying for is a religious environment. You obviously think their religion is nonsense (which is your right). But the parents wouldn’t want their children around someone who rejects the tenants of their religion — otherwise they’d go to public school.

FWIW, I attended a yeshiva in Israel where there was a homosexual teacher who was an Hasdic Orthodox Jewish man. He was permitted to teach, provided : (1) he signed an agreement (and abided by it) that he would remain completley celebate while teaching and (2) that he agreed and accepted the religious instruction that homosexual sodomy is a sin and wrongful behavior and would not argue otherwise.

As far as I knew, he abided by it.

Perhaps that could work as a compromise. My understanding of Christianity is limited, but I understand they do not object to a person having homosexual urgings, they merely object to the performance of the same. (“Love the sinner; hate the sin.”)

I understand that might be a difficult feat for you, but maybe not.[/quote]

Well, on a side note I am Jewish and the school is Jewish. However they are Haredi Orthodox and I am not observant. At one point in my negotiation with them they seemed to be willing to give it a shot if I did not ever discuss my personal life (i.e. keep it a secret) but then they reneged on that. On further note, certainly not all branches of Judaism condemn homosexuality. For me, my issue with the Orthodox is that there’s a lot of hypocrisy. IE unless you can tell me that you are keeping all the commandments and are without sin, why can you judge me?

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a former priest. He said that women were not allowed to officiate because they might be impure- when on their period. However, no one questions any of the male priests if they have masturbated that morning and are therefore impure. It’s never an equal and fair playing field in religion.

A much larger issue I see is, what example does this set for a kid at that school who happens to be gay? The suicide risk among gay teens is very high. This clearly says to that kid that there is something intrinsically wrong with him, that he would be shunned if he ever came out as gay. And I am almost certain that there are a few gay kids there. That they should be brainwashed and made to hate themselves, is a tragedy to me. Many of these kids stay closeted for a very long time. Some even marry and have kids, and then finally come out and destroy a family. I knew one man who was actively dating to marry and have children even though he was gay, because he knew that his religious community would ostracize him.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The ACLU would be all over this.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. If their actions are legal and shielded by law, the ACLU can’t do much about it. They’re too busy fighting the good fight when they have a leg to stand on. The fact that this is a religious school and may have some legal protection, changes things dramatically.

He should still take the 1/2 hour to sit down with an employment lawyer.

OP let us know what your lawyer says.

Personally, if it’s a small, private religious school, I think they should have the right to make these decisions whether I agree with them or not. I’m not big on organized religion so I can’t really get worked up about that angle, but I do believe they should have the right to make these choices if they are private and do not accept public funds. It’s their money, it’s private and I think they should get to do whatever they please, how they please, no matter how repugnant we may or may not find it.[/quote]

TheBodyGuard,
With the research I’ve been doing, I think you may be right about their legal protections as a small private school.
However I am setting up a consultation with an employment lawyer (probably more than one). Hopefully tomorrow.

Even if I have no legal recourse, I will make sure that they receive negative attention. For instance, I know that some of their financial supporters are not religious, and are much more open minded about things. If they were to find out about this, they would probably not be happy.

School started this week, and the principal told the students that I decided to go elsewhere. They’ve been very careful to keep it quiet. And I am going to make sure that it is not kept quiet. If they are making a stand here based on religious principles, they’re going to have to defend that stand. If I have no legal options, I will certainly do my best to make them bleed a little.

… I just came home from two hours of Krav Maga and am feeling quite combative!

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The ACLU would be all over this.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. If their actions are legal and shielded by law, the ACLU can’t do much about it. They’re too busy fighting the good fight when they have a leg to stand on. The fact that this is a religious school and may have some legal protection, changes things dramatically.

He should still take the 1/2 hour to sit down with an employment lawyer.

OP let us know what your lawyer says.

Personally, if it’s a small, private religious school, I think they should have the right to make these decisions whether I agree with them or not. I’m not big on organized religion so I can’t really get worked up about that angle, but I do believe they should have the right to make these choices if they are private and do not accept public funds. It’s their money, it’s private and I think they should get to do whatever they please, how they please, no matter how repugnant we may or may not find it.[/quote]

I think you are correct.

Plus, in general, the ACLU gets worked up about “state action” — i.e. a government doing something. Private religious school? The ACLU (if it is intellectually consistent, instead of agenda driven – a big “if”) be on the side of letting the private religious school do what it wants.

[quote]wakiki wrote:
On further note, certainly not all branches of Judaism condemn homosexuality.
[/quote]
Well, any that follow the Torah, do. And Hasids certainly try.

That’s a complete cop-out bullshit. No Orthodox pre-supposes to have followed all 613 mitzvah perfectly. The goal is to “try.”

I’ve been a BT for 25 years. Everyone is a BT, if they admit it.

The only thing they “judge” is the fact that you disregard the Law and don’t try or give a shit you violate the Law.

Effort and good heart is what G-d wants, and you know it.

I know squat about Christianity, but I do know they disregard all rules about “impurity.” This sounds like a complete lie, either by you or by the priest.

Nonsense, and this belief is the exact reason you should not teach at a religous school.

[quote]

A much larger issue I see is, what example does this set for a kid at that school who happens to be gay? [/quote]

The example that you put your sexual desires above the explicit rules of a religous organization? I’d say that shows you lack self-control and is piss-poor example.

Or perhaps it means that the gay lifestyle is suicidal and self-destructive and suicidal people are drawn to it in order to end their lives.

How?

I’m unaware of any Jewish religious teaching that would cause a person with homosexual desires to hate themselves, any more than there is a Jewish teaching that would cause someone with the desire to drink too much alcohol to hate themselves.

But again, your desire to proseletyze religious Jewish youth into abandoning the tenants of their religious is EXACTLY why you should not work at the religous school. An employee owes his employer a fiduciary duty to fulfil the mission of the employer – you are clearly unable to do that.

[quote]
Many of these kids stay closeted for a very long time. Some even marry and have kids, and then finally come out and destroy a family. I knew one man who was actively dating to marry and have children even though he was gay, because he knew that his religious community would ostracize him.[/quote]

Yes, there is a poster here who brags about how he dumped his family and children so he could perform sodomy. He wears the harm and destruction of those children like a badge of honor.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

I know squat about Christianity, but I do know they disregard all rules about “impurity.” This sounds like a complete lie, either by you or by the priest.

[/quote]

I am Christian, Roman Catholic specifically, and I can tell you this is absolutely ridiculous.

My God can beat the shit out of your god.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]wakiki wrote:
On further note, certainly not all branches of Judaism condemn homosexuality.
[/quote]
Well, any that follow the Torah, do. And Hasids certainly try.

That’s a complete cop-out bullshit. No Orthodox pre-supposes to have followed all 613 mitzvah perfectly. The goal is to “try.”

I’ve been a BT for 25 years. Everyone is a BT, if they admit it.

The only thing they “judge” is the fact that you disregard the Law and don’t try or give a shit you violate the Law.

Effort and good heart is what G-d wants, and you know it.

I know squat about Christianity, but I do know they disregard all rules about “impurity.” This sounds like a complete lie, either by you or by the priest.

Nonsense, and this belief is the exact reason you should not teach at a religous school.

[quote]

A much larger issue I see is, what example does this set for a kid at that school who happens to be gay? [/quote]

The example that you put your sexual desires above the explicit rules of a religous organization? I’d say that shows you lack self-control and is piss-poor example.

Or perhaps it means that the gay lifestyle is suicidal and self-destructive and suicidal people are drawn to it in order to end their lives.

How?

I’m unaware of any Jewish religious teaching that would cause a person with homosexual desires to hate themselves, any more than there is a Jewish teaching that would cause someone with the desire to drink too much alcohol to hate themselves.

But again, your desire to proseletyze religious Jewish youth into abandoning the tenants of their religious is EXACTLY why you should not work at the religous school. An employee owes his employer a fiduciary duty to fulfil the mission of the employer – you are clearly unable to do that.

Good reply. I was thinking the same exact things but didn’t want to bother.

OP, wake up. I was sympathetic (legally) until you posted the above.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]wakiki wrote:
On further note, certainly not all branches of Judaism condemn homosexuality.
[/quote]
Well, any that follow the Torah, do. And Hasids certainly try.

That’s a complete cop-out bullshit. No Orthodox pre-supposes to have followed all 613 mitzvah perfectly. The goal is to “try.”

I’ve been a BT for 25 years. Everyone is a BT, if they admit it.

The only thing they “judge” is the fact that you disregard the Law and don’t try or give a shit you violate the Law.

Effort and good heart is what G-d wants, and you know it.

I know squat about Christianity, but I do know they disregard all rules about “impurity.” This sounds like a complete lie, either by you or by the priest.

Nonsense, and this belief is the exact reason you should not teach at a religous school.

[quote]

A much larger issue I see is, what example does this set for a kid at that school who happens to be gay? [/quote]

The example that you put your sexual desires above the explicit rules of a religous organization? I’d say that shows you lack self-control and is piss-poor example.

Or perhaps it means that the gay lifestyle is suicidal and self-destructive and suicidal people are drawn to it in order to end their lives.

How?

I’m unaware of any Jewish religious teaching that would cause a person with homosexual desires to hate themselves, any more than there is a Jewish teaching that would cause someone with the desire to drink too much alcohol to hate themselves.

But again, your desire to proseletyze religious Jewish youth into abandoning the tenants of their religious is EXACTLY why you should not work at the religous school. An employee owes his employer a fiduciary duty to fulfil the mission of the employer – you are clearly unable to do that.

Your post this time was just so completely idiotic and misinformed, for the moment I will refrain from responding. I don’t need to prove anything to a random dumbass.

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
My God can beat the shit out of your god.[/quote]

OP - well thought out and reasoned response to Jewbacca, really, I am so glad you are a teacher.

[quote]wakiki wrote:
Your post this time was just so completely idiotic and misinformed, for the moment I will refrain from responding. I don’t need to prove anything to a random dumbass.[/quote]

As you stand there in front of candles representing the victory of observant Jewish patriots over Jews who wished to abandon the Law and G-d of our Fathers in favor of a “reformed” Judaism that embraced Greek “behaviors” such as you desire, I am not sure you have grounds to call anyone a dumbass.

Look, you reject the Law and faith of your Fathers because of your sexual desires. Great. That’s between you and G-d. Go pretend to be a goy. Have fun.

But kindly return the favor to observant Jewish people and leave them alone.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]wakiki wrote:
On further note, certainly not all branches of Judaism condemn homosexuality.
[/quote]
Well, any that follow the Torah, do. And Hasids certainly try.[/quote]

Incorrect. The Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist movements all follow the Torah. Their differences lie in their interpretation of the texts. Furthermore, no sect of Judaism, to my knowledge, claims that a homosexual is a sinner simply by existing. Some do however consider one who engages in homosexual behavior, a sinner - again, depending on which sect we are discussing.
What I do behind closed doors is between me and G-d. That was never in question here. What was at question was a school firing me for the simple fact that my sexual orientation does not agree with them.
Perhaps you should read “A Statement of Principles” - a document written recently by a large symposium of Orthodox rabbis - including Roshei Yeshiva at Yeshiva University - stating their stance on homosexuality. The link is at http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com/

Some relevant sections:
“All human beings are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect (kevod haberiyot). Every Jew is obligated to fulfill the entire range of mitzvot between person and person in relation to persons who are homosexual or have feelings of same sex attraction. Embarrassing, harassing or demeaning someone with a homosexual orientation or same-sex attraction is a violation of Torah prohibitions that embody the deepest values of Judaism.”
“The question of whether sexual orientation is primarily genetic, or rather environmentally generated, is irrelevant to our obligation to treat human beings with same-sex attractions and orientations with dignity and respect.”
and finally,
" But it is critical to emphasize that halakha only prohibits homosexual acts; it does not prohibit orientation or feelings of same-sex attraction, and nothing in the Torah devalues the human beings who struggle with them"

As stated above, I do not disregard the Law simply by being a homosexual.

Once more, my sexual activity or lack thereof (did I state that I engage in homosexual activity?!) is not at stake here. What is at stake is my sexual orientation. Realize that you keep confusing two different things, perhaps purposely.

This is by far the most idiotic thing you have said. Most people do not choose to be gay. There is not one single “lifestyle” that defines homosexuals, just as there is not a single “lifestyle” that defines heterosexuals. Why would a teenager struggling to come to terms with his sexuality want to be gay? Quite the opposite - some end their lives because the message they receive from their community is that they are inferior human beings simply because of their sexual orientation, regardless of whether they lead celibate lives or not.

Simple: Some people are more easily identifiable as gay. Ever meet one? Gaydar? Or more specifically, perhaps a student confided in me.

[quote]
I’m unaware of any Jewish religious teaching that would cause a person with homosexual desires to hate themselves, any more than there is a Jewish teaching that would cause someone with the desire to drink too much alcohol to hate themselves.

But again, your desire to proseletyze religious Jewish youth into abandoning the tenants of their religious is EXACTLY why you should not work at the religous school. An employee owes his employer a fiduciary duty to fulfil the mission of the employer – you are clearly unable to do that.[/quote]

The Orthodox community teaches precisely that. I should know. I’ve attended Jewish Orthodox schools for Grade School, High School, even college in NYC. So I know pretty damn well how these kids grow up being told that gay people are evil, worthless, etc. Perhaps you have been fortunate not to encounter it yourself. I have. Many others I’ve spoken to have, as well.

I am certainly not telling youths to abandon anything. I am not telling them to have gay sex. I AM telling them that they should be proud of and comfortable with whoever they are, and they should be true to themselves, and they are as valuable and godly as any other person (see quoted sections above from Statement of Principle.)

That is precisely my point. If homosexuals were more accepted in the Jewish community (not the act, but the human being) then people would not have to do that. certainly, it is a tragedy. But put yourself in his shoes, as far as what led him to lead a double life in order to please his community. I’m sure that he has suffered great pain. Judgeth not others.

It’s been fun, but I’ve got better things to do now… and I’ve been advised that I do in fact have recourse. And I will crush them.