Leg Workout Question

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

Thats basically what I was trying to say Bauer. I think especially with new guys if you start to baby them to much in the beginning, excuses start popping up all over the place. I wasnt so tactful about it as you but then again, I dont really care. IMO if you can push yourself beyond what you thought was possible, it makes you a stronger person both physically and mentally.

I think it builts character. I dont want the kid the kid to get hurt but I think if he even tries to train as hard as I suggest and he only makes it 50% there, he will still see some pretty good results.

[quote]Bauer97 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

Very true.

AA’s post was the classic look at me I train till I puke garbage. Nothing wrong with crossing that barrier ocassionally, but your goal should not be the inability to get out of the gym after your workout. Don’t let the mistake of effort overtaking accomplishment. There’s working hard and there’s working smart. If you crash your CNS, your workout can be counterproductive.

I disagree, to a degree.

AA tends to hold true to “Bodybuilding 101” type philosophies, and believe it or not, that’s not really a bad thing, depending on your goals.

There’s a lot of anti-bodybuilder backlash around here, but if you’re looking to make your muscles bigger (which I strangely think is a common goal amongst most people here), then you need a good amount of training volume.

And, of all bodyparts that I think you really need to push yourself on in order to make them grow, I’d say legs are it.

You don’t see many people with impressively muscular legs, and that’s because you have to train them hard as fuck to make them grow. Your legs are under a load all freakin’ day just walking around, so in my mind, you have to work the hell out of them in order to “convince” them to grow.

If there’s one bodypart that I can’t imagine not having sore the next couple days after training them, it’d be legs.[/quote]

22

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
You can question my training philiosphies all you want but you cant argue with my results. I did not say that you have to lift till you puke on every occasion, all I am saying is that even people who have lifted for decades have moments like that every now and again.

And yeah, I do believe if you can still run up the steps after a leg workout that you did not work hard enough. Its like one of those tells like trying to scratch the back of your head on a bicep day. And why is everybodytelling him to do less? Did he even lists reps and sets?

Whats wrong with being fucking tired after squats and lunges, you are supposed to be. I guess I am old school when it comes to that, I am not trying to save myself just so I can say I did all of my excersises and all of my sets/reps. I lift till the desired effect.

sasquatch wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

Very true.

AA’s post was the classic look at me I train till I puke garbage. Nothing wrong with crossing that barrier ocassionally, but your goal should not be the inability to get out of the gym after your workout. Don’t let the mistake of effort overtaking accomplishment. There’s working hard and there’s working smart. If you crash your CNS, your workout can be counterproductive.

[/quote]

I don’t question your philosophy as much as your advice. If someone says to you that they were so burnt by the end of their deads that they didn’t remember doing them, I have to argue with grow a pair and lift harder type advice.

Noone, I don’t believe, was telling him to do less. The parameters were also included like possibly eat more, hydrate better, split the volume. As you said, he gave sketchy info and got the same in return. All might work–none may work given his actual load parameters.

Again, nothing wrong with being tired. There is something wrong with exhausted. It affects your CNS, which affects your recovery which hampers your growth.

I applaud your success, but without rest, recovery, diet in place–balls to the walls advice is not proper.

23

I dont think he meant it like that but I do agree with what you are saying to some point. You can gain and add size without what you mentioned but as a tall person, you prob have the same issue as me, my pops did not give me much to work with. All I know is that I had to kill my legs on a fairly consistent basis to get them to grow.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Bauer97 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:

There is a great deal of difference between enough stimulation to grow and not being able to walk out of the gym. I’ve probably only gotten to that point a handful of times–on intentionally high volume days–in some years of training. You are more than welcome to come and look at my legs.

Sore is ok. But lifting until you pass out or don’t remember is foolish on a regular basis.

I agree. I would never recommend lifting near the point of passing out, or vomiting, or anything else bordering on retarded.

However, I know that there are a ton of people around here that amazingly never seem to have any post-workout soreness.

Ironically, there are also a ton of people around here who look like shit.

Unless you have the most unbelievable recovery abilities in history, or you’re training only for strength (i.e. fairly low total volume), then I honestly don’t believe you can train legs hard enough to make them grow without making them fairly sore.

That’s just my opinion, but from what I’ve seen from myself, a guy who does work his legs hard enough to make them sore, and from what I’ve seen from others, who don’t work their legs hard enough to make them sore… I rest my case I suppose

How do you know what type of soreness or how shitty people around here look?

First off you’re the only one around here arguing the sore thing. Good for you. You work your legs so hard you can’t sit to shit for 3 days. That is not the only way to get decent size and/or strength in your legs. It happens and it has to happen on ocassion, but not every leg day. [/quote]

24

I totally agree with what you said but maybe you should re-read some of my posts again. What I intended to say, and I thought I did, is that before we tell him to lighten up and change his intensity and work out volume, why not address what we know is wrong pretty much for a fact, which is his nutrition.

If he ate proper, these dizzy spells may go away and he would not have had to lighten up during his work outs at all. I also mentioned his rest periods during his heavy sets and adding some gator to his water. If that doesnt work, then take another look.

Thanks for the compliments. From your stats, you dont seem to be doing so bad either haha. But yeah he gave sketchy advice and who knows, maybe he is jerking off after every set and who would not get dizzy from that, lol. Where is this kid anyway, its his thread!!

I still think though that it is completely acceptable to be close to burnt out after doing ATG squats, lunges and deads. Shit, I would be and I have been lifting for 15 plus years.

I think a lot of guys in any qym who only train upper body would benefit greatly from just those three excercises.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
You can question my training philiosphies all you want but you cant argue with my results. I did not say that you have to lift till you puke on every occasion, all I am saying is that even people who have lifted for decades have moments like that every now and again.

And yeah, I do believe if you can still run up the steps after a leg workout that you did not work hard enough. Its like one of those tells like trying to scratch the back of your head on a bicep day. And why is everybodytelling him to do less? Did he even lists reps and sets?

Whats wrong with being fucking tired after squats and lunges, you are supposed to be. I guess I am old school when it comes to that, I am not trying to save myself just so I can say I did all of my excersises and all of my sets/reps. I lift till the desired effect.

sasquatch wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

Very true.

AA’s post was the classic look at me I train till I puke garbage. Nothing wrong with crossing that barrier ocassionally, but your goal should not be the inability to get out of the gym after your workout. Don’t let the mistake of effort overtaking accomplishment. There’s working hard and there’s working smart. If you crash your CNS, your workout can be counterproductive.

I don’t question your philosophy as much as your advice. If someone says to you that they were so burnt by the end of their deads that they didn’t remember doing them, I have to argue with grow a pair and lift harder type advice.

Noone, I don’t believe, was telling him to do less. The parameters were also included like possibly eat more, hydrate better, split the volume. As you said, he gave sketchy info and got the same in return. All might work–none may work given his actual load parameters.

Again, nothing wrong with being tired. There is something wrong with exhausted. It affects your CNS, which affects your recovery which hampers your growth.

I applaud your success, but without rest, recovery, diet in place–balls to the walls advice is not proper.[/quote]

25

What is up with all the angst on this site lately?

There’s never just 1 way guys. There are many ways. If you like one, cool but it doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you. And just because noone agrees with you doesn’t mean you have to change. Cos you like your way right?

With the post workout soreness, I only really get sore when I change programs or do an exercise I haven’t for a while. It doesn’t matter how heavy I go, I’ll still increase weight and reps but I only get sore for the first few weeks of the program.

Towards the end it’s my performance that starts to go down that tells me to change programs. Soreness as I understand it just means novelty - wow i haven’t felt THIS for a while.

26

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Who the fuck are you calling dumb?

5 '9 190 ish, why would I listen to what you have to say?

I do agree with that phrase you listed. So how about this. From 190 to 274 in 4 years of balls to the walls training. I am natural and <10% BF. I see you did not list any pics of yourself. So the next time you want to talk shit to me, make sure you come with a little bit more than some quote that you use for an excuse not to train hard.

A

hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

[/quote]

i’m actually around 205, now. and my body weight somehow dictates something about my level of knowledge? come on dude.

i just did 15 sets of alternating barbell lunges today, then did 20 sets of single leg hamstring curls, then 20 sets of single-legged seated calf raises, then 10 sets of hanging tucks… i know how to work hard. my dedication in the gym is high.

but you seemed to be implying that you need to KILL yourself in order to make gains. ya i was fucking tired after eveery single set of lunges, there were times i thought i couldn’t do any more sets, but that’s still short of doing sets 'til i can’t walk.

and everyone says they lift this, weight that, have this percentage of bf, whatever… i don’t give a fuck what you say you can do. most people in the gym lie to my face about what they lift so i’m not any more inclined to believe some dude on some website.

regardless, i am not against HARD WORK. i am against DUMBASS KILL YOURSELF DO MORE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE WORK.

27

i rarely rarely rarely get sore. only when doing something new, or doing more than i should have done. constant soreness generally means you’re not conditioned enough to recuperate from what you’re demanding from your body.

28

You did 65 sets in one workout?

You’re joking right?

29

[quote]Sxio wrote:
You did 65 sets in one workout?

You’re joking right? [/quote]

it’s called conditioning, baby. and there were a lot of low rep sets (~3 reps).

30

Sorry that I disappeared, I was at work for most of the evening.

Ok, let me see if I can add more information and just for the record I just started working out so if my routine is “fcked up" then please feel free to help me "unfck” it. That’s why I’m here, to clarify what I’m doing wrong.

Ok, lets see…I do 3 sets of 6 reps for all (squats, lunges, deadlifts). Regular deadlifts, not those stiff-legged ones. Let me see what else was asked. I eat breakfast of a bowl of oatmeal (real oatmeal, not that insta-stuff) with raisins mixed in it, couple of boiled eggs, couple of slices of turkey bacon. I have a flex schedule at work so roughly three hours after breakfast is when I go lift, as I did yesterday.

Ok, so based on this can anyone provide me more information? And don’t worry, I’m thick-skinned so if you say I’m “stupid” that’s fine. I see constructive criticism in just about everything. Ask my wife. :slight_smile:

31

Actually, you called me dumb. So I gave you some stats to show you I know my shit. I never said you did not know your stuff but replied that way b/c you got some f*cking nerve to talk shit to me about my knowledge. I would annihilate you on any given training day, training any given body part. So you did 65 sets of legs and you are telling this guy needs to lay off. Hey Tex, listen to Huey man, he really knows his stuff.

You are exactly the kind of moron that would get smashed over the head with a plate b/c he is doing 20 sets on one piece of equipment. I have yet to see any pics of you that show your physique but I guess that is also not an indication whether you know what you are talking about.

So I will make your day, you are right man, no need to train as I suggested, since it is obviosuly not working for me…

Later,
AA

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Who the fuck are you calling dumb?

5 '9 190 ish, why would I listen to what you have to say?

I do agree with that phrase you listed. So how about this. From 190 to 274 in 4 years of balls to the walls training. I am natural and <10% BF. I see you did not list any pics of yourself. So the next time you want to talk shit to me, make sure you come with a little bit more than some quote that you use for an excuse not to train hard.

A

hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

i’m actually around 205, now. and my body weight somehow dictates something about my level of knowledge? come on dude.

i just did 15 sets of alternating barbell lunges today, then did 20 sets of single leg hamstring curls, then 20 sets of single-legged seated calf raises, then 10 sets of hanging tucks… i know how to work hard. my dedication in the gym is high.

but you seemed to be implying that you need to KILL yourself in order to make gains. ya i was fucking tired after eveery single set of lunges, there were times i thought i couldn’t do any more sets, but that’s still short of doing sets 'til i can’t walk.

and everyone says they lift this, weight that, have this percentage of bf, whatever… i don’t give a fuck what you say you can do. most people in the gym lie to my face about what they lift so i’m not any more inclined to believe some dude on some website.

regardless, i am not against HARD WORK. i am against DUMBASS KILL YOURSELF DO MORE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE WORK.
[/quote]

32

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Actually, you called me dumb. So I gave you some stats to show you I know my shit. I never said you did not know your stuff but replied that way b/c you got some f*cking nerve to talk shit to me about my knowledge. I would annihilate you on any given training day, training any given body part. So you did 65 sets of legs and you are telling this guy needs to lay off. Hey Tex, listen to Huey man, he really knows his stuff.

You are exactly the kind of moron that would get smashed over the head with a plate b/c he is doing 20 sets on one piece of equipment. I have yet to see any pics of you that show your physique but I guess that is also not an indication whether you know what you are talking about.

So I will make your day, you are right man, no need to train as I suggested, since it is obviosuly not working for me…

Later,
AA

hueyOT wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Who the fuck are you calling dumb?

5 '9 190 ish, why would I listen to what you have to say?

I do agree with that phrase you listed. So how about this. From 190 to 274 in 4 years of balls to the walls training. I am natural and <10% BF. I see you did not list any pics of yourself. So the next time you want to talk shit to me, make sure you come with a little bit more than some quote that you use for an excuse not to train hard.

A

hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

i’m actually around 205, now. and my body weight somehow dictates something about my level of knowledge? come on dude.

i just did 15 sets of alternating barbell lunges today, then did 20 sets of single leg hamstring curls, then 20 sets of single-legged seated calf raises, then 10 sets of hanging tucks… i know how to work hard. my dedication in the gym is high.

but you seemed to be implying that you need to KILL yourself in order to make gains. ya i was fucking tired after eveery single set of lunges, there were times i thought i couldn’t do any more sets, but that’s still short of doing sets 'til i can’t walk.

and everyone says they lift this, weight that, have this percentage of bf, whatever… i don’t give a fuck what you say you can do. most people in the gym lie to my face about what they lift so i’m not any more inclined to believe some dude on some website.

regardless, i am not against HARD WORK. i am against DUMBASS KILL YOURSELF DO MORE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE WORK.
[/quote]

just because i did 60-ish sets on a given workout doesn’t mean this newb should be doing what i do. everyone’s abilities and conditioning are different. and if he can’t walk from the gym <you recommended that one should have difficulty walking after a ‘leg workout’> after his training session and he’s puking and nauseous, something is fucked up.

he sound like a noob who’s training every set 'til failure. i’ve seen it enough times to recognize it when i see it.

and wtf are you talking about with pics? who gives a shit if i have pics of myself or not? i bet you reduce every thread to that when you have a chance: ‘you got no pics, you have no right to post!’

what a joke.

33

Thanks Huey, great reply. You got me all figured out. I dont have time to argue with you today but I wanted you to know I read your reply.

Later,
A

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Actually, you called me dumb. So I gave you some stats to show you I know my shit. I never said you did not know your stuff but replied that way b/c you got some f*cking nerve to talk shit to me about my knowledge. I would annihilate you on any given training day, training any given body part. So you did 65 sets of legs and you are telling this guy needs to lay off. Hey Tex, listen to Huey man, he really knows his stuff.

You are exactly the kind of moron that would get smashed over the head with a plate b/c he is doing 20 sets on one piece of equipment. I have yet to see any pics of you that show your physique but I guess that is also not an indication whether you know what you are talking about.

So I will make your day, you are right man, no need to train as I suggested, since it is obviosuly not working for me…

Later,
AA

hueyOT wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Who the fuck are you calling dumb?

5 '9 190 ish, why would I listen to what you have to say?

I do agree with that phrase you listed. So how about this. From 190 to 274 in 4 years of balls to the walls training. I am natural and <10% BF. I see you did not list any pics of yourself. So the next time you want to talk shit to me, make sure you come with a little bit more than some quote that you use for an excuse not to train hard.

A

hueyOT wrote:
Lastly, man up bro. If you can still walk up the steps in a normal fashion, you did not work hard enough.

this is a dumb as hell. reminds me of that well-known phrase that goes something like: any coach can make you tired, but it takes a good coach to help you make big improvements over the long haul.

i’m actually around 205, now. and my body weight somehow dictates something about my level of knowledge? come on dude.

i just did 15 sets of alternating barbell lunges today, then did 20 sets of single leg hamstring curls, then 20 sets of single-legged seated calf raises, then 10 sets of hanging tucks… i know how to work hard. my dedication in the gym is high.

but you seemed to be implying that you need to KILL yourself in order to make gains. ya i was fucking tired after eveery single set of lunges, there were times i thought i couldn’t do any more sets, but that’s still short of doing sets 'til i can’t walk.

and everyone says they lift this, weight that, have this percentage of bf, whatever… i don’t give a fuck what you say you can do. most people in the gym lie to my face about what they lift so i’m not any more inclined to believe some dude on some website.

regardless, i am not against HARD WORK. i am against DUMBASS KILL YOURSELF DO MORE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE WORK.

just because i did 60-ish sets on a given workout doesn’t mean this newb should be doing what i do. everyone’s abilities and conditioning are different. and if he can’t walk from the gym <you recommended that one should have difficulty walking after a ‘leg workout’> after his training session and he’s puking and nauseous, something is fucked up.

he sound like a noob who’s training every set 'til failure. i’ve seen it enough times to recognize it when i see it.

and wtf are you talking about with pics? who gives a shit if i have pics of myself or not? i bet you reduce every thread to that when you have a chance: ‘you got no pics, you have no right to post!’

what a joke.

[/quote]

34

65 hard sets… c’mon. The intensity between that and the kind AA is talking about are miles apart. The internet is such an easy place to dole out BS, I don’t think asking for proof is unwarranted…

35

How about this, to decrease the nausea try pairing an upper and lower body move in one superset w/full rest.

Ex.
Front Squat
rest 60s
Flat Bench Press
rest 60s

Ex.
Romanian Deadlift
rest 60s
Lat Pulldown
rest 60s

People sometimes say that having to compound moves together, in some ways, decreases how much weight you lift on the second lift. In my opinion, whenever I’ve combined upper and lower body supersets I get a huge rush and I never really notice any decrease in weight used.

36

To try to answer your question:

1.) Your breakfast is not bad, but it needs more protein. 40-60 grams is a good amount to aim for (Berardi’s reccomendation) and you’re eating only about half that.

2.) Proper post-exercise nutrition will aid your recovery amazingly. This was the missing link for me until recently. Get some Surge, if at all possible, and take some right after finishing (I cannot drink anything but sips of water while working out personally, unless I want to throw up, but some people apparently drink half a serving of Surge while they work out too).

If you can’t afford Surge, mix 50 grams of whatever protein you’re using with a cup and a half of 100% grape juice (the purple kind). An hour after taking the protein drink, eat a big ass meal, lots of carbs, lots of protein–your biggest meal of the day. These reccomendations alone might solve all your problems.

  1. Have you tried Spike? If not, go to GNC and buy a two-tablet pack and take both pills 45 minutes before you hit the gym. You’ll be amazed how much more do-able the workout feels. If you’re impressed, you can invest in a whole bottle.

  2. Last of all: squats and deadlifts on the same day? I guess some of the big boys do that, but those two exercise KILL me when I’m giving them my all, and so I generally do them on different days. I think you’ll find you make much better gains in strength/size/and cutting body fat if you do them several days apart.

Hope this helps.

37

Good post. I do deads on a different day as well. But he also did lunges in-between squats and deads, which goes back to my point, of course you are going to be tired and even dizzy, who would not? Oh nevermind, Huey would do 20 sets of each and still have the energy to sprint up the steps to his car.

[quote]Redbones27 wrote:
To try to answer your question:

1.) Your breakfast is not bad, but it needs more protein. 40-60 grams is a good amount to aim for (Berardi’s reccomendation) and you’re eating only about half that.

2.) Proper post-exercise nutrition will aid your recovery amazingly. This was the missing link for me until recently. Get some Surge, if at all possible, and take some right after finishing (I cannot drink anything but sips of water while working out personally, unless I want to throw up, but some people apparently drink half a serving of Surge while they work out too).

If you can’t afford Surge, mix 50 grams of whatever protein you’re using with a cup and a half of 100% grape juice (the purple kind). An hour after taking the protein drink, eat a big ass meal, lots of carbs, lots of protein–your biggest meal of the day. These reccomendations alone might solve all your problems.

  1. Have you tried Spike? If not, go to GNC and buy a two-tablet pack and take both pills 45 minutes before you hit the gym. You’ll be amazed how much more do-able the workout feels. If you’re impressed, you can invest in a whole bottle.

  2. Last of all: squats and deadlifts on the same day? I guess some of the big boys do that, but those two exercise KILL me when I’m giving them my all, and so I generally do them on different days. I think you’ll find you make much better gains in strength/size/and cutting body fat if you do them several days apart.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

38

Personally I think that anyone who does squats and deadlifts on the same day is just nuts. There is no way you’re going to have max intensity for both. Now you could do one and a lighter variant of the other, for example, squats and straight legged deadlifts or deadlifts and front squats, but doing the full version of both is just too exhausting.

39

I don’t even do back and chest on the same day, much less squats AND deads. Legs almost always get sore for me.

And for the record, AAnimal said you shouldn’t be able to walk up STAIRS, so you guys can secure all that shit about not being able to walk after a leg workout. It SHOULD be hard to go up stairs after legs. Heaven forbid you should feel like you actually worked after squats and lunges.

40

I know right…

[quote]Kratos wrote:
I don’t even do back and chest on the same day, much less squats AND deads. Legs almost always get sore for me.

And for the record, AAnimal said you shouldn’t be able to walk up STAIRS, so you guys can secure all that shit about not being able to walk after a leg workout. It SHOULD be hard to go up stairs after legs. Heaven forbid you should feel like you actually worked after squats and lunges.[/quote]